GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1025999260


From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
Subject: Re: Isabel, wife/wives of William de Felton (d.1358)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:47:40 +1200
References: <003701c22535$40bb3420$6b4986d9@oemcomputer>


Hi Chris

You seem very adept in finding more questions than answers with this family!

The papal reservation confirming the marriage of Isabella of Fife and
William de Felton is an excellent find and shows that they did indeed have
issue as Duncan is undoubtedly named for her father, and is a younger son.

The only problem with the Isabel of 1331/2 being a Grey is that her
theoretical sister Isabel was married toWilliam, Lord Heron and still alive
in 1362. Assuming there weren't two siblings with the same name, it could
mean William Felton was married 3 times.

On the other hand Mary de Monthermer was born in 1298, and perhaps had been
cohabiting with her husband before 1320 in which case Isabel may have been a
few years older than we assume.

Rosie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: Isabel, wife/wives of William de Felton (d.1358)


>
> Douglas Richardson pointed out in March the evidence that Isabel, wife of
> William de Felton of Edlingham (d.1358) was the daughter and heir of
Duncan,
> Earl of Fife (d.1353), whereas it had previously been believed that Isabel
> married William de Ramsay, and that the latter held the earldom in her
> right. (Oddly Isabel's marriage to William de Ramsay even seems to have
been
> believed by some - such as C.H. Hunter Blair, writing in Archaeologia
> Aeliana in 1923 - who knew that she had married William de Felton, and
knew
> (or at least suspected) that William de Ramsay had been granted the
earldom
> before William de Felton's death.
>
> The evidence for the marriage of William de Felton's marriage to Isabel of
> Fife from Sir Thomas Gray's "Scalacronica" is confirmed by a contemporary
> record from June 1351 of a papal reservation of a benefice for William de
> Felton's son Duncan, at the petition of the king and queen, in which it is
> stated that William was of kindred to the king on his wife's side (Isabel
of
> Fife was a cousin of the king). Isabel survived her husband (being named
as
> an executrix in his will) and married three times more.
>
> Although it has also been assumed that Isabel died without issue, it seems
> clear that William de Felton's son John (d.1396) was her child. His
> inquisition post mortem says that the manor of Hinton, Northamptonshire,
was
> granted to William and Isabel and to their heirs of ther bodies, with
> remainder to William's right heirs, that William and Isabel were both
dead,
> and that John was their son. This grant was by a fine dated June 1344.
From
> the facts that William's son by Isabel of Fife, Duncan, was old enough in
> 1351 for a petition to be made on his behalf for a benefice, and that
Isabel
> of Fife survived William, I think it's clear that the Isabel who was
married
> to William in 1344 was Isabel of Fife.
>
> There is also an earlier Northumberland fine in which an Isabel, wife of
> William de Felton, appears, which is dated in the quindene of St Hilary 6
> Edward III. Possibly this is a potentially ambiguous date, as the feast of
> St Hilary 6 Edward III would be 13 January 1332/3, but the quindene (ie
week
> beginning 15 days later) of St Hilary begins 28 January, and 28 January 6
> Edward III would be 1331/2.
>
> But looking again at the sequence of fines in the printed volume, and also
a
> couple of examples where there is a transaction in the quindene of St
Hilary
> and a later transaction in the same regnal year, it does seem clear that
the
> date of this appearance of Isabel, wife of William de Felton, is January
> 1331/2.
>
> It does not seem possible that an Isabel appearing as the wife of William
in
> January 1331/2 can be Isabel of Fife.
>
> For one thing, Isabel's mother Mary was granted safe conduct to join her
> husband in Scotland only on 28 January 1319/20. Assuming that Isabel was
> conceived after this date, she could not have been born much before the
> start of 1321 (new style), which would make her only 11 at the date of the
> fine.
>
> Also, the "Scalacronica" says that Isabel married William de Felton while
he
> had her "in ward". On this basis, it's difficult to believe he could have
> married her as early as January 1331/2, as the evidence from the
> "Scotichronicon" has Isabel's father Duncan being taken prisoner at the
> battle of Dupplin, 12 August 1332, submitting to Edward Balliol and
> subsequently assisting at his, 24 September, but on 7 October being taken
> prisoner at Perth, with his wife and daughter, by Edward Balliol's
> opponents, James and Simon Fraser and Robert de Keith.
>
> I'm not clear how Isabel of Fife would have come into William de Felton's
> keeping, but at any rate, it seems that it must have happened after these
> Scottish events, and so it seems that William de Felton's wife Isabel of
> January 1331/2 must have been a different Isabel.
>
> Perhaps the Isabel of 1331/2 was William's first wife, for whom Rosie
Bevan
> has made out a very strong case to be a daughter of Thomas de Grey of
Heton.
>
> Chris Phillips
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


This thread: