GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1026118549


From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <>
Subject: Re: Maldred's children
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 09:55:49 +0100
References: <002001c223d9$e3c662a0$17e65b0c@fpfzqlga> <002601c2246d$f8b76940$06fd5b0c@fpfzqlga> <26ef01c22470$db3f96f0$8f15bcd0@computer> <004401c224b1$4f56dfe0$ff8cfea9@computer> <298401c22522$27f50500$8f15bcd0@computer>
In-Reply-To: <298401c22522$27f50500$8f15bcd0@computer>


I haven't seen any other reply this, so here goes.

In message <298401c22522$27f50500$>
malinda <> wrote:

Basically this is a fusion of two separate families with similar names,
though it is to be found in "The House of Nevill", Table No I, aft p.
133, by Henry J Swallow, pub 1885; Swallow produces no evidence for this
descent, unlike his account of much later generations where he gives
lots of useful information.

> I would like very much to see the data showing all the children assigned to
> Maldred fitz Crinan, Lord of Carlisle & Allerdale,
> d. 1045 and AElgitha of Northumberland, heiress of Raby

I have not seen anything to say she was heiress of Raby.

> b. 1010-15,

Nor any source for her birth date.

> dau. of Uchtred Earl of Northumberland, jure uxoris,

I don't think Uchtred's wife AElgifu was the heir of an earl of
Northumberland; so I can't see any justification for "de jure uxoris".

> murdered 1017, and AElgifu of England.

The CP references are: Dunbar, Vol IV, p. 504 and Northumberland, Vol
IX, pp. 704-5

> Their sons:
>
> 1. Gospatric I, Earl of Northumberland, 1st Earl of Dunbar, d. abt.
> 1045.

CP says this Gospatric was earl of Northumberland and "receiving from
Malcom III 'Dunbar with th adjacent lands in Lothian' "; he is not
stated formally to have been made earl, though his son, another
Gospatric, is stated to be the first earl. (IV, 504)

CP goes on to give more of the Gospatric line, IV pp. 504-5:

Gospatric, earl of Northumberland
__|___________________________________________________________
| | | |
Dolphin Waltheof = Sigrid Gospatric (from SP)
'of Carlisle' | 1st earl of Dunbar 4 daus
Had issue |
___________________________________|
|
Gospatric
2nd earl of Dunbar
|
earls of Dunbar

The Scots Peerage (SP) gives a similar account: Dunbar, Vol III, pp.
239-245.

> 2. Maldred fitz Maldred, Lord of Carlisle, King of the Cumbrians, occ.
> 1084; had two sons:

This is the second family, purported ancestors of Raby, and apparently
entirely separate from the above collection of earls. I am not sure
where this Maldred fitz Maldred comes from, nor his son Robert.

In a footnote in CP to the Neville of Raby article, Vol IX, p. 494, note
(a), is this descent to Robert fitz Maldred

Uchtred
|
Dolphin, granted Staindrop including Raby by Prior of Durham
|
Maldred = dau of Stuteville
|
Robert fitz Maldred = Isabel de Neville

The Uchtred and Dolphin of this descent are not to be confused with
those of Northumberland and Dunbar, much as the Nevilles or their
sycophants may have wished to give them such exalted ancestry.

> 1. Robert fitz Maldred occ. 1138.
>
> 2. Uchtred fitz Maldred, Lord of Raby, b.1075-80; died 6
> Nov.1128-9, whose son:
>
> 1. Dolphin fitz Uchtred, Lord of Raby, d.abt.
> 1136 m. Adelaide or Alice, niece & heir of Walcher Bishop of Durham,
> Earl of Northumberland.

This marriage to Alice of Durham is doubtful; I have seen no evidence
for it.

> 1. Maldred fitz Dolphin, Lord of
> Raby and Staindrope, d. 1183 m. N.N. de Stuteville, dau of
> John de Stuteville of Long Lawford, co Warwick.
> 1. Robert fitz
> Maldred, Lord of Raby and Staindrope, co. Durham, d. 1242-8 m.
> Isabel Neville, dau. of Geoffrey de Neville and Emma de Bulmer
>
> THE HOUSE OF GOSPATRIC
> A History of Northumberland, Vol VII

Do you have the publication date for this? My guess is that it would be
before 1910.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org



This thread: