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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1026193739


From: "Stewart, Peter" <>
Subject: RE: Ray Phair discovers proof of Countess Ida
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:49:11 +1000


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:]
> Sent: Friday, 5 July 2002 12:45
> To:
> Subject: Re: Ray Phair discovers proof of Countess Ida
>
>
> Reedpcgen wrote:
>
> > Ray Phair posted an incredibly important message wihich
> seems to contain proof
> > of the identity of Countess Ida.
> >
> > Go to:
> >
> > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-07/1025715976
>
>
> If possible, could Ray post the original text of the probative
> document?

Without going far out of my way, I'm unable to get hold of Ray's immediate
source, _Les registres de Philippe Auguste_ vol 1, Recueil des Historiens de
la france, Documents Financiers et Administratifs 7 (Paris, 1992).

However, the same list of captives from the battle of Bouvines, edited by A
Molinier, was printed in Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores 26
(Hanover, 1882, reprinted Stuttgart & New York, 1964), pp 392-3.

This was presumably drawn up soon after the battle (27 July 1214). The
original is stated (in 1882) to be catalogued in the (National)Archives,
Paris, as JJ VII, folio 110 et sec. The list of five prisoners sent to Paris
from the commune of Compiègne is headed by

"Rad[ulfus] Bigot, frater comitis Salesbir[iensis]"

(A note refers to "Winkelmann II, p 207 n" - I don't have time to go back to
the library & track this, which means little to me, but I suppose it may be
_Acta Imperii inedita seculi XIII_ edited by Eduard Winkelmann, 2 vols
(Innsbruck, 1880). Perhaps the note merely points out that Ralph Bigod was
related to the earl of Norfolk rather than Salisbury, as understood in the
19th century.)

In another list of 34 captives the same man is given again, as "Rad[ulfus]
le Bigot", but without mention of the earl of Salisbury.

Some confirmation of this can be found in the chronicle of Saint-Martin de
Tours written in 1225, although Ralph is not named: in the account of
Bouvines under 1214 this states:

"....Guillelmus comes Salesburiensis et frater eius....et multi magni
nominis tam barones quam alii victi capiuntur vintique in Franciam
adducuntur" [see MGH, SS 26, p 465]

It must have been well-known to the French, counting their captives' value,
that William Longespée had a brother who was taken prisoner along with him.

Peter Stewart


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