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From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: The Ridel riddle (was <Re: RIDEL (Taillefer] #2>)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:45:41 +0100
References: <370b40d5.0205210204.38ac6853@posting.google.com><ntaylor-BE4AA2.08443521052002@nnrp01.earthlink.net><370b40d5.0206021500.36532e41@posting.google.com><ntaylor-6AEA1E.20331302062002@nnrp03.earthlink.net><0df401c21c7e$420cfe40$7916bcd0@computer><000901c21da5$b1d179e0$ff8cfea9@computer><040b01c21df6$eb623f40$8f15bcd0@computer>
In-Reply-To: <040b01c21df6$eb623f40$8f15bcd0@computer>


malinda <> wrote --

>More cousin inputs....enjoy, ~malinda
>
>Pt 1 ....
>
>http://www.genpc.com/gen/files/d0064/f0000026.html
>
>Here is a bare outline I found on line. Decided to try LUKOL !
>Thanks for the reference. I shall begin to flesh out the outline
>above.
>
>Pt 2......
>
> Geoffrey I (Galfrid ) Ridel "Taillefer," Count of Angouleme, b. c1014;
>d.1048; m. (1) 1020-23 Petronille d'Archiac, liv.1048
> Five sons:
>
> 1. Fulk (Folco) Ridel "Taillefer,", b. 1030 at Angouleme, France; d. 1087;
>Count of Angouleme and Archaic; m. Condoha (Condor) Vogena of
>Angouleme [RFC shows her as dau. of Robert d'Eu, who would be the
>son of William, Count d'Exmes (Eu), Earl of Arques and Toulouse,
>d. 1054; m. Lasceline de Harcourt. It is from this line that Isabella Ridel
>"Taillefer,", heiress of Angouleme, Queen of England descends.
>
> 2. Galfrid (Geoffery) Ridel, inherited the baronies of Montausier and
>Blaye, in Guinne; b. at Angouleme, France; d.1075.m. Agnes, dau.
>and heiress of Adalbert (Albert) II, Count of Perigord who also has a
>descent from Walgrin I, Count of Angouleme. Agnes his wife had been
>married to William, Duke of Gascony, from whom she separated due to
>(degree?) relationship. Issue: 2 sons (see later)
>
> 3. Arnold (Arnaud) b. Angouleme, France. Received the barony of
>Montausier from his brother, becoming Arnold de Montausier.
>
> 4. William Ridel, b. Angouleme, France. Became bishop of Angouleme. d.
> young.
>
> 5. Aymar Ridel b. Angouleme, France, succeeded his brother as bishop of
> Angouleme.
>
>
> Issue of Galfrid (Geoffery) Ridel and Agnes of Piragord (above):
>
> 1. Helias Ridel b. Angouleme, succeeded to the earldom Piragord; became
>ancester of the earls named Helias Ridel III, IV, and V, Boso Ridel II, and
>Jordana Ridel, Countess of Piragord, m. Archibald V, Viscount of Comborne,
>progenitor of succeeding earls. Helias was of the Ridels, barons of
>Bergerac,
>in Piragord, who bore the name Helias for several generations, This branch
>ended in Margaret Ridel who m. Reginald de Pons, ancestor of the once
>celebrated house of De Pons, in France.
>
> 2. Galfrid (Geoffrey) Ridel succeeded to his father's inheritance of
>Blaye,
> in Guinne, He became renowned for his war-like exploits. He assisted the
>Normans in the reduction of Apulia, in the S.E. part of Italy, of which they
>took possession in 1043 (see coat of arms) and was with William the
>Conqueror in his expedition against England in 1066, for which he was
>rewarded with large landed estates after William was crowned as King.
>His name appears on the Roll of the Battle Abbey as "Monsieur Ridel."
>He married the sister of Roger Bigot whose younger brother William Bigot
>went to Apulia and returned with Geoffrey Ridel. Roger Bigod d. 1107
>m.(1) Adeliza de Grentmesnil, dau of Hugh; m.(2) Alice de Todeni, whose
>eldest son William Bigot was Steward to the Household of King Henry I
>d. on the Blanch Nef, 25 Nov 1120.
>
>William's son Ilger Bigod d'Ige was Commander-in-chief in Palestine Tancred
>(1096). These Bigot children were of Robert Fitz Wigot, (prob. son of
>Wigot de Saint Denis who m. a dau. Ansfred (Amfrid) II de Goz, grandson
>of Rollo (Thurstan) of Mor, "Brico," whose brother Umfrid de Telliolo, aka
> Humphrey de Tilleul-en-Auge, Castellan of Hastings m. Adeliza
>de Grentmesnil, dau of Robert I. Their son was Robert de Rhuddlan of
>Flint in Wales, Armour-bearer to Edward the Confessor.) Geoffrey d. 1098,
>leaving 4 sons:

The relationships among C11-12 Ridels in France, England, and Italy
have long needed sorting, and this is a luxurious and potentially
very helpful initial account of possible connections. Things may not
be as simple as this, though. (The popularity of the name 'Geoffrey
Ridel' in the period - e.g. famously leading a Basset to appropriate
it as his own - is a symptom of the trouble ahead.)

I'd just like to say that an example of the difficulties shows up
quickly in the case of the bundle of suggestions under 2. above. It
remains to be worked out whether the Geoffrey Ridels associated with
southern Italy are the same. One is linked early to Apulia, one is
connected with Sicily, one with the Campania. The latter two appear
fairly certainly to be the same - Geoffrey Ridel who serves with
Roger I [de Hauteville] in the 1060s and from appx. 1068 is count of
Pontecorvo and duke of Gaeta. Whether one of these is
(simultaneously, it would seem) a Geoffrey Ridel putatively linked to
William I in England at the time of the Conquest, and is also one of
the familiares of Henry I and marries Geva, da. of Hugh, E of Chester
(and is among other things Ld of Wittering, Northants, and an
ancestor of the Bassets) remains still more immediately problematic
for modern Ridel and Basset descendants.

Keats-Rohan's discussion of a "Goisfrid Ridel / mentioned in Domesday
Norfolk (DB Norfolk 9.88) as having accompanied Roger Bogod's brother
William back from Apulia" and her (perhaps bold?) identification of
him as the husband of Geva (DD, 230) and victim of the White Ship
sinking in 1120 can certainly seem a helpful start. G. A. Loud, on
the other hand, saw 'Geoffrey Ridel' as "a favourite family name
which was to occur several more times in the twelfth century",
regarded Geoffrey of Gaeta (etc) as quite different from Henry I's
servant, and left entirely open the question as to how, if at all,
they might be related ("How 'Norman' was the Norman Conquest of
Southern Italy?", _Nottingham Med. Studs._ 25:22-3 [1981]).

I haven't personally seen clear evidence yet as to whether there is
one family or are several families involved. Malinda's source
clearly conflates several individuals, and has as part of its
'Geoffrey' (the ultimately 'Italian part') a noble Ridel from
Angouleme/the Perigord, whereas Loud has the same individual as
originally a Norman "of small account, holding a fief of only a half
knight's service" from the Pays de Caux. Patricia Skinner, while
alluding to the Loud and to Amatus of Monte Cassino from whose view
she evidently takes Geoffrey to be a Norman, carefully avoids further
commitment (_Family Power in Southern Italy_, 1995), and Loud more
recently (_The Age of Robert Guiscard_, 2000) sticks to the Norman
story. Huguette Taviani-Carozzi (_La Terreur du Monde_, 1996) does
the same, though explicitly and entirely on the basis of Amatus'
account (_Ystoire de li Normant_, ed. in 1935, Rome, by V. de
Bartholomeis, as _Storia dei Normanni di Amato_) whose deliberate aim
is to celebrate Italy's Norman glory. This said, the real problem is
probably not that the Angoumois/Perigordien connection is spurious
but that the 'Norman' Geoffreys in Italy and England may not be one
individual and that, if they're not, their relationships are
uncertain.

My point's not to question your intriguing posting, Malinda, but
rather to thank you for bringing up the Ridel riddle and to invite
suggestions from friends here that may help to unravel it!

Cheers,

Cris



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