Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1027176781

From: malinda <>
Subject: Re: The Ridel riddle (was <Re: RIDEL (Taillefer] #2>)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:57:54 -0500
References: <><><><><0df401c21c7e$420cfe40$7916bcd0@computer><000901c21da5$b1d179e0$ff8cfea9@computer><040b01c21df6$eb623f40$8f15bcd0@computer> <a05100301b95f01c02091@[]>

Thank you for your comments Cris...

I will relay them to my cousin....(whose work this is).
All this is waaaay over my head, but I'm enjoying the learning

Have a great weekend....~malinda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 8:45 AM
Subject: The Ridel riddle (was <Re: RIDEL (Taillefer] #2>)

> malinda <> wrote --
> >More cousin inputs....enjoy, ~malinda
> >
> >Pt 1 ....
> >
> >
> >
> >Here is a bare outline I found on line. Decided to try LUKOL !
> >Thanks for the reference. I shall begin to flesh out the outline
> >above.
> >
> >Pt 2......
> >
> > Geoffrey I (Galfrid ) Ridel "Taillefer," Count of Angouleme, b. c1014;
> >d.1048; m. (1) 1020-23 Petronille d'Archiac, liv.1048
> > Five sons:
> >
> > 1. Fulk (Folco) Ridel "Taillefer,", b. 1030 at Angouleme, France; d.
> >Count of Angouleme and Archaic; m. Condoha (Condor) Vogena of
> >Angouleme [RFC shows her as dau. of Robert d'Eu, who would be the
> >son of William, Count d'Exmes (Eu), Earl of Arques and Toulouse,
> >d. 1054; m. Lasceline de Harcourt. It is from this line that Isabella
> >"Taillefer,", heiress of Angouleme, Queen of England descends.
> >
> > 2. Galfrid (Geoffery) Ridel, inherited the baronies of Montausier and
> >Blaye, in Guinne; b. at Angouleme, France; d.1075.m. Agnes, dau.
> >and heiress of Adalbert (Albert) II, Count of Perigord who also has a
> >descent from Walgrin I, Count of Angouleme. Agnes his wife had been
> >married to William, Duke of Gascony, from whom she separated due to
> >(degree?) relationship. Issue: 2 sons (see later)
> >
> > 3. Arnold (Arnaud) b. Angouleme, France. Received the barony of
> >Montausier from his brother, becoming Arnold de Montausier.
> >
> > 4. William Ridel, b. Angouleme, France. Became bishop of Angouleme. d.
> > young.
> >
> > 5. Aymar Ridel b. Angouleme, France, succeeded his brother as bishop
> > Angouleme.
> >
> >
> > Issue of Galfrid (Geoffery) Ridel and Agnes of Piragord (above):
> >
> > 1. Helias Ridel b. Angouleme, succeeded to the earldom Piragord;
> >ancester of the earls named Helias Ridel III, IV, and V, Boso Ridel II,
> >Jordana Ridel, Countess of Piragord, m. Archibald V, Viscount of
> >progenitor of succeeding earls. Helias was of the Ridels, barons of
> >Bergerac,
> >in Piragord, who bore the name Helias for several generations, This
> >ended in Margaret Ridel who m. Reginald de Pons, ancestor of the once
> >celebrated house of De Pons, in France.
> >
> > 2. Galfrid (Geoffrey) Ridel succeeded to his father's inheritance of
> >Blaye,
> > in Guinne, He became renowned for his war-like exploits. He assisted
> >Normans in the reduction of Apulia, in the S.E. part of Italy, of which
> >took possession in 1043 (see coat of arms) and was with William the
> >Conqueror in his expedition against England in 1066, for which he was
> >rewarded with large landed estates after William was crowned as King.
> >His name appears on the Roll of the Battle Abbey as "Monsieur Ridel."
> >He married the sister of Roger Bigot whose younger brother William Bigot
> >went to Apulia and returned with Geoffrey Ridel. Roger Bigod d. 1107
> >m.(1) Adeliza de Grentmesnil, dau of Hugh; m.(2) Alice de Todeni, whose
> >eldest son William Bigot was Steward to the Household of King Henry I
> >d. on the Blanch Nef, 25 Nov 1120.
> >
> >William's son Ilger Bigod d'Ige was Commander-in-chief in Palestine
> >(1096). These Bigot children were of Robert Fitz Wigot, (prob. son of
> >Wigot de Saint Denis who m. a dau. Ansfred (Amfrid) II de Goz, grandson
> >of Rollo (Thurstan) of Mor, "Brico," whose brother Umfrid de Telliolo,
> > Humphrey de Tilleul-en-Auge, Castellan of Hastings m. Adeliza
> >de Grentmesnil, dau of Robert I. Their son was Robert de Rhuddlan of
> >Flint in Wales, Armour-bearer to Edward the Confessor.) Geoffrey d. 1098,
> >leaving 4 sons:
> The relationships among C11-12 Ridels in France, England, and Italy
> have long needed sorting, and this is a luxurious and potentially
> very helpful initial account of possible connections. Things may not
> be as simple as this, though. (The popularity of the name 'Geoffrey
> Ridel' in the period - e.g. famously leading a Basset to appropriate
> it as his own - is a symptom of the trouble ahead.)
> I'd just like to say that an example of the difficulties shows up
> quickly in the case of the bundle of suggestions under 2. above. It
> remains to be worked out whether the Geoffrey Ridels associated with
> southern Italy are the same. One is linked early to Apulia, one is
> connected with Sicily, one with the Campania. The latter two appear
> fairly certainly to be the same - Geoffrey Ridel who serves with
> Roger I [de Hauteville] in the 1060s and from appx. 1068 is count of
> Pontecorvo and duke of Gaeta. Whether one of these is
> (simultaneously, it would seem) a Geoffrey Ridel putatively linked to
> William I in England at the time of the Conquest, and is also one of
> the familiares of Henry I and marries Geva, da. of Hugh, E of Chester
> (and is among other things Ld of Wittering, Northants, and an
> ancestor of the Bassets) remains still more immediately problematic
> for modern Ridel and Basset descendants.
> Keats-Rohan's discussion of a "Goisfrid Ridel / mentioned in Domesday
> Norfolk (DB Norfolk 9.88) as having accompanied Roger Bogod's brother
> William back from Apulia" and her (perhaps bold?) identification of
> him as the husband of Geva (DD, 230) and victim of the White Ship
> sinking in 1120 can certainly seem a helpful start. G. A. Loud, on
> the other hand, saw 'Geoffrey Ridel' as "a favourite family name
> which was to occur several more times in the twelfth century",
> regarded Geoffrey of Gaeta (etc) as quite different from Henry I's
> servant, and left entirely open the question as to how, if at all,
> they might be related ("How 'Norman' was the Norman Conquest of
> Southern Italy?", _Nottingham Med. Studs._ 25:22-3 [1981]).
> I haven't personally seen clear evidence yet as to whether there is
> one family or are several families involved. Malinda's source
> clearly conflates several individuals, and has as part of its
> 'Geoffrey' (the ultimately 'Italian part') a noble Ridel from
> Angouleme/the Perigord, whereas Loud has the same individual as
> originally a Norman "of small account, holding a fief of only a half
> knight's service" from the Pays de Caux. Patricia Skinner, while
> alluding to the Loud and to Amatus of Monte Cassino from whose view
> she evidently takes Geoffrey to be a Norman, carefully avoids further
> commitment (_Family Power in Southern Italy_, 1995), and Loud more
> recently (_The Age of Robert Guiscard_, 2000) sticks to the Norman
> story. Huguette Taviani-Carozzi (_La Terreur du Monde_, 1996) does
> the same, though explicitly and entirely on the basis of Amatus'
> account (_Ystoire de li Normant_, ed. in 1935, Rome, by V. de
> Bartholomeis, as _Storia dei Normanni di Amato_) whose deliberate aim
> is to celebrate Italy's Norman glory. This said, the real problem is
> probably not that the Angoumois/Perigordien connection is spurious
> but that the 'Norman' Geoffreys in Italy and England may not be one
> individual and that, if they're not, their relationships are
> uncertain.
> My point's not to question your intriguing posting, Malinda, but
> rather to thank you for bringing up the Ridel riddle and to invite
> suggestions from friends here that may help to unravel it!
> Cheers,
> Cris
> --

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