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From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: de Thouars and de Faye (Bramley, Surrey) in 'DD' - ?
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:38:38 +0100
References: <124.1406d49e.2a6b0568@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <124.1406d49e.2a6b0568@aol.com>


John, thanks a lot for the updating of the URL for Paul Theroff's
Faye line, which helps! Re the opening of your file kindly sent on
Faye and descs., viz. --

>1 Raoul de Faye
>----------------------------------------
>Death:bef 1190
>Occ:seneschal of Poitou
>Father:Aimery I of Chatellerault (-1151)
>Mother:Maubergeon (-ca1119)
>
>Seneschal of Poitou under Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine


-- I'd just like to mention a few apparent discrepancies between this
account and that of Boussard (Jacques), _Le Gouvernement d'Henri II
Plantagenêt_ (1956).

Boussard has Raoul as "sans doute fils d'Aimery IV et d'Agnes de
Poitiers". I have no clear idea of what this is about (there's
certainly no Aimery IV de Chatellerault in this period). A clue may
be offered by Todd, who wrote 9 Mar 2002 <Re: de Thouars> that,
according to Szabolics de Vajay, Amaury V [not Amaury VI - and
evidently not Amaury IV] de Thouars married Agnes, daughter of
William IX of Aquitaine and Philippa of Toulouse. (That much is
confirmed by e.g. Michel Dillange [_Les Comtes de Poitou_ (1995),
185]; this Agnes is subseq. wife of Ramiro II of Aragon.) I haven't
followed this up yet in my copy of Richard, _Histoire des Comtes de
Poitou_ (though I do want to, if only because interestingly 2 early
Raoul de Fayes are indexed there, one as seneschal of Saintonge, the
other as uncle of Eleanor of Aquitaine) -- but in any case it doesn't
do anything like undo this whole tangle.

(I frankly think my raising this is a red herring and hope no one
will be snowed by it, though Aimeri I de Chatellerault is usefully
suggested in Duguet, below, to be the son of a Thouars -- one
Adenordis, _daughter_ of Aimeri IV -- by Boson II de Chatellerault.)

Alongside this, Faye searchers here may be interested to know that in
an amply documented though in places tenuous article by or collected
by Jacques Duguet "Notes sur les vicomtes de Chatellerault" at
<http://www.ifrance.com/poitou/Chatel.htm>; (first pub'd in _Bulletin
de la Société des Antiquaires de l'Ouest_, vol. XVI, 4e trimestre
1981, p. 261-270) it's proposed that Raoul's name arises from -- of
all people -- Raoul [Ralph] de Gael, who is argued to be the hitherto
unknown father of Maubergeon/Dangereuse, wife of Aimeri I de
Chatellerault. (The author's point of departure is the belief that
Raoul de Faye was at some time called Raoul de Montfort.)

Boussard's repeatedly firm and in fact insistent on Raoul's having
never (contrary to frequent assertions) been seneschal of Aquitaine.
This might leave room for a distinction between Aquitaine and Poitou
-- and in fact, in what appears to be a lapse, on 476 Boussard calls
him "oncle" of Henry II [i.e. rather than of Eleanor] and "le
sénéchal de Poitou" -- but he elsewhere says that Raoul was in fact
without title other than that of seigneur de Faye (a seigneurie he
regards as likely to have been the result of a dismemberment of the
vicomté of Chatellerault for the benefit of a cadet of the family).
In Boussard's view, Raoul was only briefly _gouverneur_ of Aquitaine
(following Patrick of Salisbury, "vers 1170", succeeded in 1171-72 by
Foulque de Matha), and probably on an ad hoc basis. (For details see
pp. 115 n. 8, 354 and n. 3 & 5, 356, 434, 476.) Boussard clearly
regards Raoul with distaste, and the matter of Raoul's 'title' might
well be set aside as a bit of nitpicking; I mention it merely to help
keep in perspective the question of his status insofar as it may at
some point have geneal. signif.

Cris



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