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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1027456260


From: "B.M. Kamp" <>
Subject: Re: Dampierre-Richebourg
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:33:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: <BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E0008C7FA708701B1FF0D@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au>


Peter Stewart wrote:
Subject: Dampierre-Richebourg

> According to ES, Guy de Dampierre, seigneur of Richebourg (test April 1345)
> married first (presumably after 1312 when her first husband died) Marie
> d'Enghien, burggravine of Ghent & dame of Zotteghem (died 1318), widow of
> Hugues V d'Antoing, seigneur of Epinoy, daughter of Gérard II d'Enghien,
> seigneur of Zotteghem & Marie, burggravine of Ghent. Guy maried secondly in
> October 1321 (as her second husband) Béatrix, dame of Putten & Strijen (died
> 1354), widow of his first wife's brother Hugues I d'Enghien, seigneur of
> Zotteghem, daughter (according to Warlop) of Nicolas III, seigneur of Putten
> & Aleyd, dame of Strijen.
>
> The second wife is supposed to have been mother of Guy's daughter & heiress
> Alix (aka Alips, Adela), dame of Richebourg (born after June 1322, died
> 1346) who married as his first wife Jean I, count of Luxembourg in Ligny &
> Roussy (died 17 May 1364). ES says this marriage took place in 1330, while
> Léon Vanderkindere says 1333 [in _La Formation territoriale des principautés
> belges au moyen âge_, 2 vols, second edition (Brussels, 1902)]. However,
> Vanderkindere gives a different mother for Alix - stated to be Isabelle de
> Bar, daughter of Thibaut II, count of Bar & his second wife Jeanne de Toucy.
> According to ES, this Isabelle occurs in 1295 but no marriage is shown for
> her.
>
> It is hard to see how ES can be right about the mother of Alix and her
> consequent lifespan from mid-1322 at the earliest to 1346. In the table for
> her husband's family she is given as the mother of nine children, remarkable
> for a woman dying at ca 24 years of age, and the earliest of their
> marriages is dated to ca August 1344. Her eldest son is stated to have
> married in 1354, fathering a son born in 1357. This tight chronology isn't
> impossible, of course, but suspicious to me especially as Alix's purported
> mother Béatrix of Putten had no heirs by her first marriage and yet neither
> Alix nor any of her children is stated to have inherited Putten & Strijen
> from her.
>
I have come across this problem some years ago. The only logical
conclusion seemed to me to be that's Alix was a child of her fathers
first marriage with Marie d'Enghien. Later on I discovered that al least
two authors support my conclusion:
1. The famous Belgian genealogist Lefort. I do not know when he lived,
but his handwritten tables were pulished in facsimile in the years 1980.
Lefort says that Alix was a daughter of Guy by his first wife.
2. The also "famous" F.C. Butkens (famous for his falsified genealogy
of the Aspremont-Lynden, 1626). Marie d'Enghien is mentioned as
mother of Alix in his "Trophées tant sacrés et profanes du Duché de
Brabant" published 1724/1726. As far as I know his "trophées" is a
honest publication.

I do not know who firstly invented the marriage with Isabelle of Bar.
George Poull " La maison souveraine et ducale de Bar" Nancy 1994
states she died unmarried.

Note that the chronological problems disappear under this solution.
Note also that Alix first daughter was named Marie and that there is no
Beatrix among her children.

Regards,

Bert M. Kamp





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