GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1028119291


From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:47:26 +0100
References: <011c01c23882$67085b20$de00a8c0@mshome.net>
In-Reply-To: <011c01c23882$67085b20$de00a8c0@mshome.net>


Rosie, well found, and much to mull over!

Cris

P.S. re <supportive of Ray Phair's recent post on the subject on the
mother of Robert fitzMeldred, Joan de Stuteville> -- I agree with
your wording, viz. 'on the subject of'). I wonder though whether
<"Gilebert Halsart et Johanna de Stuteville " > may not add trouble,
rather than confirmation, to the notion that Robert FitzMaldred m. a
Jo(h)anna de Stuteville? (I.e. might it raise not only the
possibility of confusion between the wives of the brothers, but
questions on the grounds of consanguinuity -- or am I missing
something?)


"Rosie Bevan" <> wrote -

>Today I had a look at the two volumes from the Surtees Society volumes
>covering the Liber Vitae of Durham. They are:
>
>v.13 - Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis: Nec Non Obituaria Duo Ejusdem
>Ecclesiae, edited by J.Stevenson (1841)
>
>v.136 - Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis : A Collotype Facsimile of the
>Original Manuscript, edited by A.H.Thomson (1928)
>
>The Liber Vitae is a volume compiled over a period of 600 years which
>consists of the names of the benefactors to the Church of St Cuthbert,
>Durham. It was placed on the High Altar and was used by the monks when
>praying for the benefactors during Divine Service, though probably
>impracticable to read out the whole list. It was initially a very sumptuous
>work, highly structured and written in alternate lines of gold and silver
>ink in a very beautiful hand, and begun some time in the ninth century at
>Lindisfarne. However from about 1200 onwards, the handwriting degenerated,
>and as the book filled, spaces in previous pages were randomly filled in, or
>the writing on some of the pages was rubbed out to make room for new
>entries, resulting in a chaotic mess.
>
>Perhaps owing to this, the editor of volume 13, J. Stevenson, was not very
>consistent in copying the names as they appeared on the original pages, with
>the result that family clusters are obscured in his transcription.
>
>For example on page 107 of v. 13 is the following:
>
>"Comes Rogerus Bigot
>Ida uxor ejus
>Henricus Capellanus
>Hugo
>Willelmus
>Rogerus
>Johannes
>Radulphus
>G G Dapifer
>Basilia
>Maria
>Margaret
>Ida, pueri ejus"
>
>Somewhat baffled by the inclusion of Henricus Capellanus, GG Dapifer and
>wondering whether Basilia was a previously unknown daughter of Roger and
>Ida, I looked in vol. 136 which has the folio pages reproduced
>photographically, and realised that the editor had extracted the names
>reading from left to right, ignoring the context.
>
>The names were actually arranged thus
>
>"Comes Rogu's Bigot. Ida uxor ej Henricus capell.
>Hugo Will's Rogu's Johs Radulf GG Dapifer
>Maria Margared Ida pueri ej [illegible] Basilia"
>
>The three names at the end had been added later in the space left between
>the Bigod entry and the end of the page. This is clearly an example of the
>misleading editing of the first volume of the Liber Vitae, and why it was
>felt the second one needed to be published.
>
>From this we can see that the children of Roger and Ida Bigod are said to be
>named Hugh, William, Roger, John, Ralph, Maria, Margaret and Ida. How
>contemporary or reliable this entry is, I have no idea, nor whether the
>William named is William Longespee or William Bigod.
>
>Another significant entry is supportive of Ray Phair's recent post on the
>subject on the mother of Robert fitzMeldred, Joan de Stuteville.
>
>"Gilebert Halsart et Johanna de Stuteville " (v.13 p. 19; v.136 f.23b]
>
>It is known that Gilbert Hansard was brother of Robert fitzMaldred, though
>evidently by different fathers, by the attestation of a charter, ["Roberto
>fil. Meldredi, Gileberto Hansard fratri suo"]. Gilebert Halsart mentioned in
>the Liber Vitae is probably husband of Joan de Stuteville and father of
>Gilbert Hansard.
>
>Another family grouping of Malcolm, Earl of Atholl appears in v.13 p.100
>"Malcolmus filius Mal. et comes Athodlie
>Hextilda filia Ucthredi uxor ejus
>Simon filius ejus
>Henricus filius ejus
>Dunecanus frater ejus
>Bedoch soror ejus
>Kelehathoni filius ejus
>Cristina soror ejus
>Constantinus nepos ejus"
>
>One entry which caught my interest is that of
>"Comes Willelmus de Salesburie,
>Gundre comitissa"
>
>This is clearly not William Longespee as he was Earl of Salisbury by right
>of his wife, Ela, who outlived him. This must then refer to William
>FitzPatrick, but I was not aware that he had a wife called Gundred nor is it
>mentioned in the Complete Peerage. Nevertheless, it would be reasonable to
>assume that he had a previous wife because he married Eleanor de Vitre,
>mother of his daughter and heir, when he was about 40 years of age.
>
>It seems to me that the Liber Vitae, which contains over 3000 names, has
>much raw genealogical data, which would be of value and interest to this
>group.
>
>Cheers
>
>Rosie


--


This thread: