Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1028135410

From: "Chris Phillips" <>
Subject: Re: Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:13:48 +0100

Rosie Bevan wrote:
> Today I had a look at the two volumes from the Surtees Society volumes
> covering the Liber Vitae of Durham.
> It seems to me that the Liber Vitae, which contains over 3000 names, has
> much raw genealogical data, which would be of value and interest to this
> group.

Many thanks for that interesting post - I'm sure you're right.

I hope the University of Durham's Liber Vitae project will eventually make
more of this material accessible, but it looks as though the planned
timescale is quite long:

I wonder if there would be any way of encouraging an exchange of information
while the project is under way?

> "Comes Rogu's Bigot. Ida uxor ej Henricus capell.
> Hugo Will's Rogu's Johs Radulf GG Dapifer
> Maria Margared Ida pueri ej [illegible] Basilia"
> >From this we can see that the children of Roger and Ida Bigod are said to
> named Hugh, William, Roger, John, Ralph, Maria, Margaret and Ida. How
> contemporary or reliable this entry is, I have no idea, nor whether the
> William named is William Longespee or William Bigod.

CP vol.9, p.589, note f gives, in addition to Hugh, sons William, Ralph and

> Another family grouping of Malcolm, Earl of Atholl appears in v.13 p.100
> "Malcolmus filius Mal. et comes Athodlie
> Hextilda filia Ucthredi uxor ejus
> Simon filius ejus
> Henricus filius ejus
> Dunecanus frater ejus
> Bedoch soror ejus
> Kelehathoni filius ejus
> Cristina soror ejus
> Constantinus nepos ejus"

This list helps with one ambiguity in the extremely brief account of the
early earls of Atholl in CP [vol. 1, pp.304,305], in which Hextild, the wife
of Malcolm, is described as "da. of Waltheof, or Ughtred" (CP says Malcom's
father is "Madach"). The second son Henry must be Malcolm's successor. So I
wonder if all the relationships are relative to Malcolm? If so, the order of
the people named seems a bit odd.

> One entry which caught my interest is that of
> "Comes Willelmus de Salesburie,
> Gundre comitissa"
> This is clearly not William Longespee as he was Earl of Salisbury by right
> of his wife, Ela, who outlived him. This must then refer to William
> FitzPatrick, but I was not aware that he had a wife called Gundred nor is
> mentioned in the Complete Peerage. Nevertheless, it would be reasonable to
> assume that he had a previous wife because he married Eleanor de Vitre,
> mother of his daughter and heir, when he was about 40 years of age.

That's an interesting discovery.

This William's mother was previously the wife of William, earl of Surrey,
who was the granddaughter of the Flemish Gundred, from whom nearly all
Gundreds in England in the 12th century were descended. It's tempting to
think that William FitzPatrick was married to a niece of his mother's first
husband. Unfortunately I can't see any mention of one who would have been
available as his wife (granted that she would have to be dead by the early
1190s). There's Gundred, the daughter of William de Warenne's brother
Reynold, but according to Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants", p.777, she
did not die until 1224, having married three times. William de Warenne's
sister Gundred also had a daughter Gundred, by her husband Roger, earl of
Warwick. But this Gundred, having married Hugh, earl of Norfolk, survived
until at least 1200 [CP vol.9, p.586], CP lists three daughters of William
de Warenne's other sister Ada, but they don't include a Gundred.

(Incidentally, I'm puzzled why Keats-Rohan, on p.539, identifies the wife of
William de Lancaster as either the widow or the daughter of Roger, earl of
Warwick. The evidence presented by CP [vol.9, note to p.585] seems pretty
clear that it was the daughter, not the widow.)

Chris Phillips

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