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From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
Subject: Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:30:09 +1200
References: <06d401c25ca4$bea0db00$de00a8c0@mshome.net>


Recte

To correct two errors in my post
1. 1333 for the knighting of William II should read 1233 (Thanks, Henry)

2. The heir of Ralph de Somery was not called Nicholas - that was his
brother William Perceval Somery's heir. It appears that Ralph may have left
a son who died young called Ralph. Ida was already married to William
Beauchamp in 1220 as recorded by a fine.[CP XII p.111, note e]

Cheers

Rosie


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation


> Adrian and Paul's assessment of the chronological feasibility that Ida
wife
> Walter fitzRobert was daughter of William II, is sound. However, the main
> sticking point with this line is that proof has always been lacking about
> Ela's parentage, let alone Ida's. By Ela I'm referring to Ela who was
> married to William de Odingsells, Justiciar of Ireland and mother of Ida,
> Ela, Alice and Margaret, coheirs of their brother, Edmund.
>
> The latest theory that there were two Ida's as siblings in the family of
> William Longespee and Ela, Countess of Salisbury is not supported by the
> Foundation History in the annals of Lacock Abbey, which was founded in
> 1229-30 by Ela, widow of William Longespee. The annals were compiled about
> 1275 and continued down to the end of the 15th century. Kenneth H. Rogers
> (ed). 'Lacock Abbey Charters' (Wilts. Record Soc. 34 ; 1978).
> "At ille lectissime eam suscepit, et fratri suo [of king Richard] Gulielmo
> Lungespe maritavit, per quem liberos subscriptos habuit; viz Gulielmum
> Lungespe secundum, Stephanum, Ricardum, Nicholaum, Isabellam Vescy,
> Petronillam, quae obiit invirginitate, et apud Bradenstock, juxta
> latus aviae suae dextrum, ibidem sepultum, sub lapide marmoreo, Elam et
> Idam, A.D.mccxxvi." [William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanea, v.6 p.501]
>
> The children are named William, Stephen, Richard, Nicholas, Isabel,
> Petronilla, Ela and Ida. This is the source of the information given in CP
> XI p.381-382, most of which can be verified by independent contemporary
> record.
>
> Working out a family chronology by the dates of the males in a family is
> misleading. A male can father a child any time after puberty but a female
> generally only produces children over a 25 year period in her life,
starting
> from the age of 15/17 by which time she was already married. It follows
that
> generations need to be calculated through the female not male lines for
> accuracy. Younger sons in a household did not generally contract marriages
> as early as the son and heir, because the future of the estate and
> allegiance was not so much at issue.
>
> Working backwards along the female line and allowing a comfortable 17
years
> generation gap for the birth of each eldest child from Ida
> (Herdeberge/Clinton) Odingseles to William Longespee II it can be seen
that
> the younger Ida was actually born after William Longespee I had died.
>
> Ida (Odingsells) Herdeberge was already the mother of two infant daughters
> when widowed in 1284. This would place her as having been born around
1265.
> This is in line with what we known of her brother Edmund's birth in 1273
and
> her youngest sister's birth in 1277. If we assume this to be the case,
this
> would place the birth of her mother, Ela, wife of William Odingseles
around
> 1248. We know that Ela's brother Robert FitzWalter was born in 1247, so
we
> have a realistic match. Ela is clearly younger than her husband,William
> Odingseles, who was born around 1229 (granted free warren in 1250). It was
> probably a subsequent marriage for him.
>
> As Robert, the eldest child of Ida was born in 1247, her estimated date of
> birth is around 1230. Ida who was married to Walter fitzRobert was not the
> same as the Ida, daughter of William Longespee and Ela Countess of
> Salisbury, was married first to Ralph de Somery who died in 1220, and
> secondly to William Beauchamp, Baron Bedford, recorded as holding the
manor
> of Chislehampton, Oxon., as Ida's dower from the Somery family in 1235 [CP
> XII p.110-12]. CP IX p.382 is in error in stating that this Ida was
married
> to Walter fitzRobert first. At the time of the death of her first husband,
> Ida was mother of Nicholas de Somery. She was therefore probably born
> 1203-1205 and the eldest child of Ela and William Longespee. She was
> probably already contracted to marry Ralph by 1210 when William Longespee
> was holding Chislehampton manor on behalf of Ralph de Somery who was then
a
> minor.
>
> Ida's sister, Ela, was married around 1244 to James Audley when the manor
of
> Stretton and 2 carucates and two virgates in Wrecchewyke, Oxon were
settled
> on them by fine by William Longespee and Idonea his wife. [H.E.Salter,
'The
> Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire,1195-1291 (Oxford Record Society, 1930)]. If
> this was part of the final marriage arrangement, Ela's birth would have
> occurred before 1232.
>
> Today Paul cited Farrer (Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222) which shows that
> William Longespee II had livery of Idonea's land at her coming of age in
> 1226, and if of age himself this would put his date of birth around 1205.
We
> know that negotiations for his marriage had taken place in 1216 presumably
> after he had turned seven [CP XI p.383]. If so, that would put his date of
> birth around 1209. The most telling evidence of his age was the 1229
> inspeximus and confirmation of his mother's foundation charter of Lacock
> Abbey [charter no.2, Lacock Abbey Charters]. He would have had to be of
age
> in order to legally carry out this function. This places his birth by
1208.
> He was most certainly of age when he issued letters patent to all knights
> and free tenants to the manors of Lacock and Hatherop, notifying them that
> he had granted and confirmed those manors in free alms ca. 1231-2 (no. 8).
> He was knighted in 1333 but this does not mean he had come of age, as
> knighthood could be bestowed at any age. He was apparently due to be
> knighted three years prior to that when on service with the king in
> Brittany.
>
> Crucially we need to focus on the age of Idonea. She was of full age in
> 1226, meaning she was around fifteen at that time. There is no reason to
> believe she could not have borne children in the early 1230s around the
time
> that Ida and Ela appear to have been born.
>
> 1.William Longspee d.1226=Ela 1188-1261
> 2.William Longespee b.c. 1208-1250=Idonea de Camville b.c 1212-1252
> 3.Ida de Longespee b.c.1231 =Walter fitzRobert d.1258
> 4.Ela b.c.1248=William de Odingsells c.1229-1295
> 5.Ida b.c.1265=1. Roger de Herdeberge d.1284, 2. Thomas de
> Clinton d.1210
>
> A more fundamental genealogical issue for this line is that the only
source
> of the information for Ida wife of Robert fitzWalter being mother of Ela
de
> Odingsells is a passage from the 'Fundatorum Historia' of Lacock abbey.
> There are significant problems with the particular passage in which it
> appears. Here it is quoted in context with the description of the progeny
of
> Ela Countess of Salisbury and William Longespee.
>
> "Gulielmus Longespe ex praedicta Ela liberos genuit, quorum nomina sunt
haec
> ; Gulielmus Longespe secundus qui viriliter contra hostes Christi in Terra
> Sancta dimicans ibidem pro nomine Jesu contumeliam patiens, vitam
temporalem
> finiens in Christo sine fine victuris, ut fertur, athleta Dei ad couli
> palatium A.D.1249 ascendit, cujus animam domina Ela mater ipsius tunc
> existens abbatissa de Lacock, vidit coelos penetrans in stallo suo, et
horam
> caeteris sororibus denuncians. genuit etiam Ricardum, qui fuit canonicus
> Sarum, cujus corpus apud Lacock tumulatur ; Stephanum comitem Ultoniae,
> cujus corpus apud Lacock humatum est, cor vero ejus apud Bradenstok
optinet
> sepulturam ; et Nicolaum, qui fuit episcopus Sarum, cujus corpus apud
Sarum
> tumulator, cor itaque ejus apud Lacock, viscera vero apud Ramisberiam ;
> Isabellam de Vescy ; Elam, quam duxit comes Warwyk, et postea Philippus
> Basset, quae remansit sterilis ; Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem
> Walterus fil. Roberti, da qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quae velatae
> erant apud Lacok ; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de
qua
> genuit Robertum qui.....Ela ergo uxore Guil. Lungespee primi, nata fuid
apud
> Ambresbiriam, patre et matre Norman novem..." [William Dugdale, Monasticon
> Anglicanea, v.6 p.501]
>
> It mentions William II, but there is no mention of his wife Idonea de
> Camville. It then mentions Richard who was a canon at Salisbury and buried
> at Lacock ; Stephen, Earl of Ulton, Ireland whose body was buried at
Lacock
> and heart at Bradenstoke ; Nicholas, bishop of Salisbury whose body was
> buried at Salisbury, heart at Bradenstoke, entrails at Amesbury ; Isabella
> [married to William de] Vescy ; Ela who was married to the Earl of Warwick
> [Thomas de Newburgh] and after Philip Basset but died without issue.
>
> It is at this point we meet the confused statement that Ida "Camyle" was
> wife of Robert fitzWalter. Does this mean Ida is daughter of [Idonea de]
> Camville, or does it mean Ida is married to Robert de Camville in the same
> style that Isabella is known by her married name of Vescy? She is stated
to
> have two daughters Catherine and Lora who were veiled at Lacock.
> Ela wife of William Odingsells is not overtly named as daughter of Ida,
but
> listed afterwards, the implication being she was progeny of William de
> Longespee I. We know this to be incorrect from her approximate date of
birth
> around 1248. Her son and heir is also named as Robert but we don't have
any
> evidence for this at all.
>
> We have to assume that the passage was written a long time after the
events
> and judging by the details, extracted from information on family tombs.
The
> crucial question for us, despite the chronological possibility of what is
> hinted at here in the passage, is what actual independent proof do we have
> that about the parentage of Ela de Oddingsells?
>
> Cheers
>
> Rosie
>
>
>
>
>

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