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From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:51:02 +1200
References: <019301c25159$246c1f00$de00a8c0@mshome.net> <a9b2ce02.0209050549.13561cfa@posting.google.com> <08be01c25653$7cf069c0$de00a8c0@mshome.net> <a9b2ce02.0209100845.160313a4@posting.google.com> <015501c25918$bad36ae0$de00a8c0@mshome.net> <00b801c25b57$f87e3be0$c0917ed4@default>


Dear Ivor

Thank you very much for taking the time to to summarise Clay's article in
detail.

I think we had just about covered the main points ourselves, but I was
hoping that there might be something additional which would preclude both
marriages. Curious how Clay says Dervorguilla married John Baliol in 1233
(Chron.Melrose, fo.41v, p82) and has the date as 1223 in EYC. I suppose it
must be a typo - it's easily done.

Another factor which is conspicuous by it's absence is any mention of
Balliol involvement in Stuteville dower lands. One would expect to see
something over such a long period of widowhood.

Thanks, again Ivor.

Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivor West" <>
To: ""Rosie Bevan"" <>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Stuteville of Cottingham


> Summarizing Clay's analysis in the article (EHR, lxv,(1950), pp89-91),
> he says that Nicholas de Stuteville died in 1233 and, according to
> Farrer, Dervorguilla remarried John Baliol. But when her father, Alan
> of Galloway, died in 1234, there was no mention of any husband other
> than Baliol. A Dervorguilla was described as widow of Nicholas de
> Stuteville in 1236 (Exc. e. Rot. Fin., i.309) and as Dervorguilla de
> Stuteville in 1238 (Reg. Gray, Surtees Soc., 81) and in 1241 ( York
> Fines, 1232 - 1266, p95-96). None of these refer to John Baliol.
>
> The Dervorguilla who married John Baliol cannot have been born before
> 1209, the date of her parents' marriage, but the daughter of the
> Dervorguilla who married Nicholas de Stuteville, Joan de Stuteville,
> was married to Hugh de Wake by 1229. Therefore, chronologically, there
> must have been two Dervorguillas.
>
> Farrer had stated that the most important evidence for Alan of
> Galloway's daughter being the mother of Nicholas de Stuteville's
> daughter is the descent of Whissendine (Hugh Morville - Richard
> Morville - Helen Morville m. Roland of Galloway - Alan). Clay thought
> that this can be explained on assumption that Alan gave Whissendine to
> his sister, the other Dervorguilla, in frank-marriage with Nicholas de
> Stuteville. He gave another sister to Walter de Biset as late as 1233
> (Chron.Melrose, fo.41v, p82).
>
> Clay says that Dervorguilla married John Baliol in 1233 (Chron.
> Melrose, fo.41v, p82).
>
> Ivor West
>
> | Charles Clay believed the placement of Dervorguilla, wife of
> Nicholas de
> | Stuteville, as daughter of Alan of Galloway is chronologically
> unlikely, but
> | does not expound upon it in EYC. He wrote a paper on this - "Two
> | Dervorguillas" in Eng. Hist. Review, lxv (1950), pp. 89-91 which I
> have not
> | read.
> |
> | Examining this issue, at the death of Nicholas de Stuteville in
> 1233, he and
> | Dervorguilla had a daughter, Joan, already married, who produced her
> first
> | born son around 1238 (38 in 1276). That would make Joan born before
> 1223 and
> | thus Devorguilla, her mother born before 1208. In all probability
> earlier
> | than this - before 1204. Roland de Galloway died in 1200, so if her
> father,
> | she would have to had been born before 1201. At the inquisitions
> taken
> | after death of Dervorguilla in 1290, John Baliol her youngest son
> and heir
> | is stated, to be "aged 40 at the Feast of St Michael last" and "aged
> 35".
> | [CIPM ii no. 771].(CP I 385 appears to be in error in an unsourced
> statement
> | saying he was born in 1240). The first date puts his birth in 1249,
> the
> | second in 1255. This does not take into consideration the fact that
> she also
> | had five daughters, as well as the three sons, who may have been
> born after
> | her third son. For this to be the same Dervorguilla who produced
> Nicholas
> | Stuteville's daughters in the early 1220s and John Balliol's
> children in the
> | late 1230-50s, and died in 1290, it would mean a period of
> childbearing
> | spanning over 30 years and a death in her late 80s. While not
> impossible, it
> | would be unusual for the time.
> |
> | The Chronicle of Melrose has Dervorguilla married to Baliol in 1223
> (Alan
> | was married to Margaret of Huntingdon in 1209), which would conflict
> with
> | the marriage of Dervorguilla and Nicholas de Stuteville. However
> such
> | chronicles should be judged in the context in which they were
> written.
> |
> | If anyone has access to the above mentioned paper, I would be
> interested in
> | Clay's analysis.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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