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From: "Paul C. Reed" <>
Subject: Re: Re-dating William Longespee's Birth
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 15:32:12 -0700
References: <11a.1c80c573.2b485b27@aol.com> <5cf47a19.0301041312.511b0c74@posting.google.com>


I made a number of posts yesterday. They all appeared on the AOL server,
but not on Google or other servers or GEN-MED, so I'll try again. I even
sent a message direct to GEN-MED, but it did not go through.

The conclusion is that Countess Ida probably married the Earl of Norfolk
about 1180 and that William Longespee was born earlier, 1170-5. No one
argues that he was born earlier than 1170. The question then remains, was
he born in 1170 or a handful of years later?

[I wrote:]

MARRIAGE OF HUGH BIGOD TO MAUD MARSHAL

The younger Hugh Bigod was married to Maud Marshal BY Lent 1207; she was
eldest surviving daughter of William Marshal. His son and heir, William,
was born ca. 1190. Chris pointed out that CP says her parents married about
August 1189, so Maud was born abt. 1192 or 1193-4? She was certainly born
by 1195 if 12 in 1207. In fact, if she were born only in 1195, it would add
credence to why Hugh Bigod did not marry until 1207 and why she did not
produce a male heir until some years later. He married as soon as she was
of an age to marry.

William Marshal, her father, took great pains to negotiate the marriages of
his daughters, and all had their marriages arranged before his death except
one.

Again, one questions what the definition of marriage was in this case. I'm
assuming it meant a completed married (he at least 14, she 12). It might
have been arranged years before, but not completed until she attained age 12
(though she may still not have been able to bear children safely for some
years more).

Though the date of marriage may limit her age, I don't see that it has to
limit his, more than Hugh having to wait until she was age 12 to complete
the union. This was before the reforms in 1215 made by the Council of the
Lateran IV.


BIRTH YEAR OF RANULF FITZ ROBERT, HUSBAND OF MARY BIGOD

Rannulfus f. Roberti was still in custody and infra etatem Mich. 1202 (PRS
1937, 64) , but an adult in 1205-6, when he gave 200 marks for 1/3 of
William de Stuteville's land in Bramham and Leyburn. He had also completed
his payment in the accounts for Knaresborough by Michaelmas 1207 (EYC
7:11-12).

That would put his birth 1181-4/5. His eldest brother, Waleran, however,
was aged 15 in 1185, born ca. 1170 (Rot. Dom. 49).

There is also an account of this family in Gen. NS 3:32, which gives Ranulph
as third son, younger brother of Walran and Radulph/Ralph, and Dugdale's
Mon. Angl. 6:920, 381. Ranulph was heir to his brother Ralph at Saxthorpe
(Rot. Obl. et Fin. 337).

Ranulf f. Robert is stated to have married Maud Bigod by 1198-99 (in the
Eyre which began in the later part of 1198), Book of Fees, 1324.

In the account of the Middleham fee, it states that Ranulf son of Robert
succeeded his brother Ralph by 1206. He had Menythorpe with Mary, daughter
of Roger Bigod, in frankmarriage. For his account, see EYC 5:ii:303. The
account of Middleham in VCH NRiding Yorks. is not that helpful.

But this does seem to narrow the birth of Ranulph fitz Robert to 1181-4/5.

Ranulph fitz Robert's father had died in 1184 or 1185. Rot. Dom [1185]., 49
reads, "Filius Roberti filii Radulfi, qui obiit ad festum Sancte Crucis, est
in custodia Domini Regis, et est nepos Rannulfi de Glanuill', et eadhuc cum
eo; et est .xv. annorum."


MARY AND HUGH BIGOD AND THEIR BIRTHDATES

Mary Bigod was the first daughter of Countess Ida named in the Liber Vitae.
She married Ranulph (NOT Ralph, which was his brother's name) fitz Robert
fitz Ralph by 1198-9. He was born between 1181 and 1184/5, but I'd think
1181-2 would be the closer date, given that his father was dead 1184-5 and
his eldest brother Waleran was b. 1170. As Mary Bigod would seem to be at
least 12 in 1198-9 ("duxit"), she'd be born before 1186-7.

I don't think it unreasonable, given that this is a political match between
Yorkshire and Norfolk, to say she was probably OLDER THAN TWELVE in 1198-9,
about her husband's age, her husband still being in wardship when their
union was arranged, and thus born 1181-4.

Hugh Bigod gave homage for the manor of Staverton in 1199. I don't think it
unlikely to say he married his wife Maud Marshal as soon as she was of the
proper age (twelve, or born by 1195), her eldest brother being b. 1190. If
Hugh Bigod was, say, 18 when he rendered homage in 1199, that would give a
birth year of 1181. That matches well with the probable birthdate of his
eldest sister Maud Bigod.


MARRIAGE OF COUNTESS IDA AND BIRTH OF BIGOD CHILDREN

A marriage between Ida and the Earl of Norfolk BY 1180 seems very
reasonable.

She had born a bastard to King Henry some years before, not before 1170, but
William Longespee was accounted for in the Pipe Rolls in 1191. .

One might proffer that she was likely young when Henry had his way with her,
given the births of her Bigod children about 1180-1195 or so.

It is doubtful that the Earl would have married her right after the birth of
William Longespee, but a few years later. If Ida were 15 in 1170, I don't
think it unreasonable that she would have been 25 in 1180.

It is, after all, possible that Hugh Bigod was born 1178-9, age 21 in 1199,
unless we determine he was still in the wardship of his father for two years
or so after the 1199 grant. It is EASILY possible that the second child of
Countess Ida was a boy, and that Maud was the third child.

Countess Ida had eight children, Hugh, William, Roger, John, Ralph, Mary,
Margaret and Ida.

If we give two years between births, that is a range of 16 years (say
1179-1195).

If she did not nurse the children, but gave birth every 18 months (assuming
no multiple births), we have 12 years (say 1183-1195). If it was 15 months
it would be an even tighter range.

One would either presume that Ida came to the end of her childbearing years
(say, age 45) at the end of the eight children, or died in childbirth. If
she was 45 in 1195, she would be 20 in 1170. That seems to be a bit older
than we would expect.

If we guessed that Ida was about age 16 in 1170, or born 1154, she would be
45 in 1199, when Hugh Bigod gave homage for Staverton.

We actually have Ida in quite a number of memorial grants by her husband,
but cannot date them with a certainty yet which would give us a date of
death or end range.

Even if Ida died in childbirth, on the eighth child, and we subtract 12, if
we assumed she died about 1195, that would mean she started having Bigod
children in 1183. I think that would be the late date, given the probable
years of birth of Hugh, and Mary not being born later than 1186/7 ("duxit"
in 1198-9).

I don't think a marriage date to the Earl of Norfolk about 1180 or even 1178
is unreasonable.

I do think a birth date for William Longespee of 1180-5 defies these
considerations. If he were born in 1185, and we gave five years before Ida
married the Earl of Norfolk, that would have Ida marrying in 1190, her
eldest son Hugh paying homage in 1199 at age eight or six, and her daughter
Mary married at age seven or five.

Paul



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