GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-01 > 1041868826
From: (John Ravilious)
Subject: Re: Origins of the Despensers - status report
Date: 6 Jan 2003 08:00:26 -0800
References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Monday, 6 January, 2003
The interweaving of Alspath with the Despenser/Segrave lines is certainly
one of those puzzling pieces I hope to unravel (while hopefully still making
some sense, sans scents, of it all).
Pieces I had found from the PRO, showing transactions (if no other
relationships) between the descendants of Ivo de Alspath and the Segrave
1. From PRO, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/468 - DR10/970], DOCUMENTS OF TITLE, DEEDS AND PAPERS
FILE - DEEDS AND PAPERS - ref. DR10/528 - date: before 1241
|_ [from Scope and Content]
Gift with warranty from Warin son of Warin son of Fulcher to
Stephen de Segrave for homage and service of all his land which he
held in Allespathe,with the homage, rents and services of freemen
and villeins, etc., to hold of the said Warin, rendering to the chief
lord the customary services and to Warin annually a pair of white
gloves or one penny at Michaelmas; for which the said Stephen gives
~ This Warin was evidently son of 'Warin son of Fulcher' by a
daughter and coheiress of Ivo de Alspath (cf. Kay Allen, <re: The
Family of Ivo de Alspath (a Despenser link ?)>, 23 Dec 2002).
2. PRO, same archives:
FILE - DEEDS AND PAPERS - ref. DR10/531 - date: mid 13th century
|_ [from Scope and Content]
Gift with warranty from Richard de Kynton' with the assent of
Matilda his wife to William Waldyve son of Richard Waldyve of
Alesphathe, for his homage and service of all the lands he holds of
Richard in Alespathe, namely the land reaching in length from
Kyngweysforde to Fennywey and in width from Fastulfesscyche to the
common wood, saving the land of Richard Jordan and excepting the land
of Jordan le Knave; and land reaching from Fennywey in width to the
divides of Sir Alexander de Bykenhul and in length to Fastoulfsiche,
which land Richard Falke held in the town of Alespathe and which land
Peter Blund' surrendered to the grantor in full court; and all the
land which the said William held of Richard in Alespathe together with
that which Nicholas Falke once held and which he had surrendered; and
land which lies in length from Fildenestred to Fastulfsyche, and in
width from Presteboruweye to the divides of Sir Alexander de Bykenhul,
excepting two acres which Richard Jordan and Stephen le Knave held;
and all the land which Richard de Waldyve father of the said William
held of James le Bret in Alespathe; and all his share in Haliwellemor'
lying between the divides of Pakent' and the field of Alespathe; to
hold to the said William, his heirs and assigns (except religious
houses) of the said Richard paying annually a rent of 12 pence (2
terms) for which the said William gives to the said Richard ten marks
ir 'gersumna', and five shillings to his wife Matilda.
~ James le Bret, or 'Brito' was elsewhere designated 'lord of
Alspath', and was he who confirmed the gift of land by Ivo
de Alspath [his grandfather] ca. 1220, naming him 'Ivo son
of Aschetillus'. Kay identified Alice, daughter and coheiress
of Ivo de Alspath, as wife of Walter le Bret (see her post
3. PRO, same archives:
item: [no title] - ref. DR10/552/iii - date: 3 December 1325
|_ [from Scope and Content]
Inquisition on the death of John de Segrave, senior, concerning
land in Kyngton' which he held in chief, lands in Alespathe which he
held of John de Langeley, other lands in Alspath which he held jointly
with his wife Christiana of the said John by the feoffment of Richard
de Kynton', other land in Alspathe which he held jointly with his wife
of the said John by the feoffment of Gerard de Alspathe and Matilda
his wife and land in Stretton' super Donnesmore.
~ Besides dragging the Langleys into the matter, this shows that
John de Segrave had THREE blocks of land in Alspath, co.
Warwicks., held independently of each other
It is evident that at least one of the holdings of John, Lord Segrave (d.
1325) was that purchase of Warin 'son of Warin son of Fulcher': given what
terms we have from the PRO, this was probably the same referred to in
1325 'which he held of John de Langeley', as the others were held jointly
with his wife Christiana at his death. Then, there is the possibility of
this not being the case, but a connection between Warin (son of W. son of
F.) and the Langley family....
~ What a tangled web they weave, when little coheirs they do conceive...
Good luck, and good hunting.
* John P. Ravilious
email@example.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote in message news:<firstname.lastname@example.org>...
> John - having offered to cull stuff from Coss' _Lordship, knighthood,
> and locality_ -- and having looked tonite again at it, now with the
> Alspath/Despenser stuff in mind -- I think you may regret not seeing
> it for yourself. There are no great surprises, I think -- but the
> weave of Alspath/Bret, E's of Chester, Segrave et al. is too rich to
> summarize for you as quickly as you'd like, and as clued-up as you
> are this very week you'll be alert to fine texture I wouldn't want to
> be responsible for having omitted -- and there are certainly original
> sources here that VCH definitely lacks in this area. Watch the
> movements, too, of Walter de Coventry - there's rich backstory to the
> lines we're after. See espec. pp. 47 and 64, and the p. 64 note on
> the Despensers of Loughborough for sources (n. 21). If you want,
> I'll read along with you at my end, but I feel it'd be well to get a
> feel for this thing.
> Henry Sutliff, if you're watching - I see that the Siddington, Glos,
> Langleys are (relatives and no doubt predecessors of) the Langleys of
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