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Subject: Re: Re-dating William Longespee's Birth
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:46:48 EST


Here's another speculative observation about Margaret [de Beaumont], daughter
of Robert, Earl of Leicester. I'll have to check Crouch's study, The
Beaumont Twins, and other sources, but let's consider this.

Dugdale completely confused the identity and husbands of Margaret. For her
marriage to Ralph de Toeni, we have R. de Torigny, as quoted by CP 12:i:765,
note (f):

'[1162] Radulfus de Toene moritur, relicto parvulo filio ex filia Roberti
comitis Leecestriae (R. de Torigny, op. cit., p. 214). Delisle, referring to
this passage, misquotes the date as 1160 (Delisle-Berger, op. cit.,
Introduction, p. 419)."

Pipe Roll entries verify that his widow was named Margaret, and that she held
Walthamstow in dower.

Margaret's son and heir by Toeni, Roger de Toeni, was a 'little boy' at his
father's death, according to Torigny's testimony. He did not become active
in affairs as an adult until 1189, in which year his son and heir (Ralph) was
likely born, according to CP. Given that his father died in 1162, and he was
even then a little boy, he must have occurred earlier than 1189, even if his
son and heir was not born until he was at least 30 (reminiscent of Hugh
Bigod, isn't it?).

Now to Margaret's parents. Robert, twin of Waleran, was not married to Amice
until after the incident of the White Ship on 25 November 1120.

As she had been contracted to marry Richard, illegitimate son of Henry I, one
would expect she was not yet 12 in 1120, or such a high profile marriage
would have been completed (she survived her husband's death in 1168 and
entered religion).

Robert was not born until 1104, so he was only 16 in 1120. If this
consideration of Amice is correct, it would mean the couple would not be
expected to have children before about 1125.

The Rot. Dom. in 1185 states that Margaret was aged 60, or born about 1125,
but such ages are frequently an approximation. It would seem, in light of
the above, that she could easily have been a few years younger.

But her male heir by Toeni was only a little boy in 1162, which would likely
indicate a birth after 1152. One wonders if she might have been married
before. It would be extraordinary that she had no children and did not marry
until 1150-5, unless there was some sort of handicap, especially if a
marriage had been arranged in 1138. That would be more than a decade without
the birth of a male heir. How many daughters were born to her?

Food for thought.

Paul

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