GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-01 > 1041879829
Subject: Re: Re-dating William Longespee's Birth
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:03:49 EST
In a message dated 1/6/2003 9:36:59 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> It seems to me that Countess Ida - if she is a Tony - does fit better as a
> granddaughter than a daughter of Ida of Hainault (although daughter isn't
> impossible). The problem then, seems to be in determining which of Ida's
> sons is her father.
> Chris Phillips
I had done very extensive research on Roger de Toeni, who married
Ada/Alda/Aude de Chaumont. His brother Ralph, who married Margaret de
Beaumont and died in 1162, was the eldest.
The two other brothers, Baldwin (d. 1170) and Geoffrey, a cleric who
flourished 1157-72 and was living 1177, appear to be younger. I suggest that
because Geoffrey was a cleric, and thus not likely in line for succession
should his eldest brother die without issue, and Baldwin was left with his
uncle on the Continent (of course, it is always possible that Baldwin was
endowed with Toeni/Tosny holdings in Normandy of which we are unaware).
It was this Roger de Toeni who married Aude de Chaumont who was endowed with
several important manors that had come into the family as marriage portions:
Holkham, co. Norfolk, Bergholt, Suffolk, Garsington, co. Oxford, and
Whittlesford, co. Cambs.
Baldwin de Toeni, son and heir of Roger, was not born until 1170 (aged 15 in
1185, Rot. Dom.). Unless he had a host of elder sisters, for whom we have no
evidence, it would be unlikely that Aude de Chaumont gave birth to a daughter
named Ida in or before 1155. I don't have my notes in front of me, but Aude
was only 30 in 1185, or born in 1155.
This would seem to leave us only with Margaret, daughter of Robert, Earl of
Leicester, as a possible candidate for mother of Countess Ida in this
generation, IF Countess Ida is not the youngest daughter of Ida of Hainault
and DOES belong to this Toeni family.
But, again, what is her maritagium?