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From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Origins of the Despensers - status report
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 02:07:51 +0000
References: <4D8B7350.58F7D631.001A36B5@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <4D8B7350.58F7D631.001A36B5@aol.com>


Hi John --

Good questions and I want to answer right away --


> A minor epiphany [good timing] - any chance that 'Domesday
> People' (or 'DD') would have a reference to the following?
>
> 1. Thurstan or Turstinus, with holdings in Leicestershire
> (preferably Queniborough).
> 2. Hugh or Hugo, with holdings in Leicestershire
> (preferably Burton on the Wolds).
> 3. Hugh de Beauchamp or Bellocampo, with holdings at
> Arnesby and/or Loughborough.
>
> #2 would be Hugh de Berges, whom as I indicated was the
> father of Ansketil de Berges whom Kay identified as having a
> fee including Burton on the Wolds, co. Leics. I believe
> Burton is the key to the origins of Elias, and doubtless
> Thomas, le Despenser.

On Hugh de Beauchamp or Bellocampo, I think I've looked at this with
you a while ago (or certainly meant to!), but without emphasis.
There's an article in DP and one in DD:

DP, 260 - (Summarizing briefly) Important royal official, maj.
ten-in-ch in Beds, where sheriff under Wm I & early Wm II; his fief
becomes the barony of Beauchamp. [Many sources]

DD, 311 - Hugh I/II of Eaton Socon, Beds ['parentage uncertain'; this
was one of my old DD corrections - the article has him as Hugo I tho
the title calls him Hugo II], "probably a natural son of Simon I de
Beauchamp of Bedford, who acquired the barony of Eaton Socon c.1155";
m. Philippa de Trailly, da. of Geoffrey II; d. 1187, heir Oliver.
[Many sources]

I don't give these Beauchamps in fuller detail because - in quickest
poss. answer to your question - no assn. with places or names on our
list that can account for the Loughborough/Arnesby etc business. If,
tho, you'd like the sources (since links may well show up in one of
the texts, I'll happily send them.

Of the (obviously) many Beauchamps in DD there's only one assoc'd
with Leics: "Philip de Bellocampo occurs in the Leicestershire Survey
holding land at 'Dailescroft'. In 1166 Norman de Bellocampo held
eight fees of William, earl of Warwick" [DD, 312]. Interesting that
K-R links these two in the same article (of which this is a complete
quotation). One source: Round, 'Leicestershire Survey', pp. 161-65.
Forgive me if you said, but have you seen the Round? It's in _Feudal
England_, which should be readily available there. I haven't looked
at it here.

I find no names reasonably pliable to match 'de Berges' - tho perhaps
with a finetooth comb....

Sadly, in spite of offering 19 Turstins (the generic sp. K-R uses),
none in Leicestershire or Warwickshire and none associated - so far
as I can see - with any of the many names in your data. Nor of the
_many_ Hugos, none associated with Leics or any of our names,
including de Berges (and only 1 in Warks - a tenant of Osbern fitz
Richard in Domesday, Warks [DP 272, sources available if you wish].)*
It's frustrating, as you'd know, that the format of DD makes it
imposs. to check it for the given name with any speed (ironic, given
all our old frustration with it for making patronymics so hard to
find! Ah for that index!).

I've wanted to point out, though:

In DD, 652:

de Queniburg, Radulf

Held two fees of the honour of Mowbray in 1166. Probably successor
of William, Domesday tenant of Geoffrey de La Guerche at Stache and
Queniborough, Leicestershire.
Red Book of the Exchequer, ed. Hall (1897), pp. 418-21.

By the way, in a quick glance thru the Britos (of whom many) in DD, I
notice a Willelm Brito holding 1/2 fee of Simon de Beauchamp of
Bedford in 1166. William Brito s. of Warin gave land in Meppershall
to Chicksand priory (Charters to Chicksand Priory, xvi, p. 118). In
1242 William Brito held one and a half hides of the barony at Halton
(Fees, 887). [Red Bk of Exch, ed. Hall (1897), 319-22 -- cited in
DD, 187.] Yes, these sites are all in Beds. - but the more I think
about it the more I feel that it's the Bedford Beauchamps - as
against those of Worcs, later Warks, or Som. - that will yield the
Loughborough/Arnesby connection. I just don't know enough about em
(tho _of_course_ the Hugh and Philippa above are - it's always the
way - let's see - a couple of 24th ggrpnts. of mine). There's just
no Halton - makes me Thurstan just to contemplate.

Cris


_________________
* I want to mention, only so that it doesn't go completely unnoticed,
that the conjunction of the names Hugh and Ivo does appear in one
other famous context affecting Leicestershire in a big way: viz. the
Grentemesnils. I know you've thought about this, and have ruled it
out for obvious reasons (such as that they've long since flown the
coop by this time).

--

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