GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-02 > 1045104520
From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
Subject: Fw: King Henry II's kinswoman, Eustache, wife of Geoffrey de Mandeville and Anselme de St.-Pol
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:42:34 +1100
Too quickly had I pressed reply to, only after my reply had gone did I
realise that Kay had cc her message to gen med as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
To: "Kay Allen AG" <>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: King Henry II's kinswoman, Eustache, wife of Geoffrey de
Mandeville and Anselme de St.-Pol
> Dear Kay,
> There are many sources mentioned but:
> Jacques Laurent, Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Molesme II, Paris 1911, Premier
> cartulaire nr.84; Darnach ist die mutter von Eustachie-x-Graf Anselme eine
> Isabelle. Da in der erste haelfte des XII jahre keine Graefin Isabelle von
> Champagne bisher bekannt ist, kan Eustachie keine (Blois-) Champagne sein,
> Can you follow enough German? Being Dutch it is very close to the Dutch
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kay Allen AG" <>
> To: "Leo van de Pas" <>
> Cc: <>
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: King Henry II's kinswoman, Eustache, wife of Geoffrey de
> Mandeville and Anselme de St.-Pol
> What is the source that says that Eustache was not a Blois-Champagne?
> Schwennicke is not always good at picking his sources. He is not
> ferreting them out.
> Leo van de Pas wrote:
> > Douglas Richardson you are a cloth! I have been told you do have access
> > ES (Schwennicke) I doubt this person was wrong, but as I expressed
> > you have trouble using it, you couldn't find the sources before nor this
> > time.
> > ES III Teilband 4 Tafel 622 covers de St.Pol family. Why do you "think"
> > Anselme had an earlier known wife? Please explain, because ES states
> > did. You have found no evidence that he had a daughter, Beatrix, by that
> > unknown wife----Tafel 622 will tell you, as well as three other
> > and a son. Of course, ES can only be regarded as a Seondary Source, but
> > you studied the many sources used by ES to compile this Tafel?
> > not.Amongst those sources is recorded that the mother of this elusive
> > Eustachie was an Isabella and explains that Eustachie could not be a
> > Blois-Champagne.
> > A Sherlock Holmes you are not, but then you expect Watson to do all
> > work.
> > As Always, Best Wishes,
> > Leo van de Pas
> > > (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message
> > news:<>...
> > > > Dear Newsgroup ~
> > > >
> > > > Anselme Candavène is thought to have had an earlier marriage to an
> > > > unknown wife, by whom he reputedly had a daughter, Béatrix, wife of
> > > > Jean I, Count of Ponthieu. So far, I have not found the evidence
> > > > which supports that Anselme had a daughter named Béatrix. If
> > > > really was a daughter of Anselme Candavène, she can't have been the
> > > > child of his later wife, Eustache, as Anselme and Eustache were
> > > > married some time between 1157/8 and 1164, whereas Béatrix herself
> > > > married before 1170 to Jean I, Count of Ponthieu.
> > > >
> > > > As I noted in an earlier post, Béatrix is almost certainly the
> > > > of Count Jean's son and heir, Guillaume, Count of Ponthieu, who
> > > > married Alice of France. I "guesstimate" that Guillaume was born c.
> > > > 1171, as his father issued a charter with consent of his wife,
> > > > Béatrix, and his brother, Gui, as late as 1184, but issued a charter
> > > > with consent of his wife, Béatrix, and son and heir, Guillaume, in
> > > > 1186.
> > >