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From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
Subject: Re: List of Bastard Children of King Edward IV of England
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:48:15 +1100
References: <5cf47a19.0303141118.6e5148ea@posting.google.com>


If we put together what has been published about the mistresses of Edward
IV, we may get an interesting picture.

Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 880, gives Edward IV
by Elisabeth/Elizabeth Waite
1.Arthur
by NN
2.Grace
3.Elisabeth/Elizabeth, she married her cousin Thomas, 4th Lord Lumley
(he wasn't a Lord Lumley!!!)

The Plantagenet Encyclopedia, General Editor Elizabeth Hallam, page 160.
Arthur Plantagenet, died 1542. Illegitimate son of Edward IV of England and
Elizabeth Lucy, daughter of Thomas Wayte, a minor Hampshire gentleman. Their
affaire lasted from around Edward IV's accession in 1461 to his marriage to
Elizabeth Woodville in 1464.

The Complete Peerage Volume VIII page 63.
Elizabeth suo jure Baroness Lisle, married (2) 12 November 1511
Arthur Plantagenet, illegitimate son of Edward IV. His mother's name is
unknown; by some said to be the "Lady Elizabeth Lucy" by others the
notorious Jane Shore, and by others one Elizabeth Waite, he himself being at
first known as Arthur Waite.

Blood Royal, by Charles Mosley, pages65 and 166
He gives Edward IV nine legitimate children whereas Cahiers de Saint Louis
gives as a tenth legitimate child Brigitte 1480-1517.

One less legitimate child but one more illegitimate one. However,
uncertainty is certainly indicated.
Edward IV is said to have had (a) a bastard son (Edward, of Wigmore, died
young 1468) by Eleanor, daughter of the 4th Earl of Ormonde.
====somehow I doubt this one, as wasn't Eleanor Butler supposedly engaged to
Edward IV? An engagement (if there was one) which should render the children
by Elizabeth Woodville illegitimate?

(b) a bastard daughter (Elizabeth married Thomas Lumley and had issue) by a
woman referred to as "Lady Elizabeth Lucy" presumably wife of Sir William
Lucy who died in 1492 <snip> and (c) illegitimately either by Elizabeth (not
Jane) Shore (wife of William Shore, a London merchant) on whom he fathered a
bastard daughter Grace (living 1492, Or Elizabeth Waite;
===the link between Elizabeth Waite and what follows is, to me, not very
clear=====
4e.Arthur, surname originally Waite or Wayte, subsequently Plantagenet,
<snip> born circa 1470.

What have we got from this? That Arthur was known as Arthur Waite, may give
an indication that his mother was Elizabeth Waite/Wayte. Elizabeth Hallam's
book makes this Elizabeth Waite a Mrs. Elizabeth Lucy. The Complete Peerage
makes this Mrs. Elizabeth a Lady Elizabeth Lucy. "Blood Royal" makes Lady
Elizabeth Lucy also mother of Elizabeth (Lumley).

Elizabeth Hallam indicates as years of possible birth of the child(ren) of
Edward IV by Elizabeth Waite as about 1461 till 1464/5. "Blood Royal"
guesses that Arthur was born about 1470 and Richardson guesses "say 1475".
Richardson wants him to be as young as possible, because Arthur didn't marry
until 1511.

If Arthur was born in 1463 he would have been about 48 when marrying,
if he was born in 1470 he would have been 41, if born in 1475 he would have
been about 36.

However, we most not forget that he was in 1511 "only" the bastard brother
of the Queen, and also he married the widow of a disgraced man, disgraced
enough to be decapitated. And this, in my opinion, makes the age of Arthur,
when marrying, irrelevant, he could well have been 48 as easy as only 36.

For the children of Thomas Lumley and Elizabeth "Plantagenet", Richardson
seems to follow Burke's Extinct Peerage,
one son, Richard (Lord Lumley)
and three daughters
Anne (wife of Robert Ogle)
Sibyl (wife of William Hilton
Elizabeth (wife of Robert Cresswell)

Then follows a weird observation "Descendants (not traced)". Whose
descendants? Or, not traced by whom? Especially as earlier in his message he
notes that Gary Boyd Roberts indicated that there are American descendants
of Elizabeth Lumley.

Cahiers de Saint Louis, which Richardson has learned to appreciate, gives
the same three daughters but instead of one son, gives four sons. The last
son, Roger, is important as he is an ancestor of Prince Charles (See Paget
O24907).

That Richardson's remark "Descendants (not traced)" is ludicrous can also be
shown by the known acestry of just three of the children of Thomas and
Elizabeth Lumley (let's skip Roger, he has been shown to have descendants
till the present):

Richard Lumley
he is an ancestor of the later Earls of Scarborough, HRH Richard, Duke of
Gloucester, Dukes of Buccleuch, Dukes of Northumberland, Marquess of
Exeter, Marquess of Linlithgow, Marquess of Zetland

Anne Lumley
she is ancestor of HM the Queen, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Dukes
of Atholl, Bedford, Northumberland, Richmond, Earls of Harewood and Warwick

Sybil Lumley
she is ancestor of HM the Queen, Lady Diana Spencer, Dukes of Abercorn,
Buccleuch, Devonshire, Marlborough, Westminster, Northumberland and the last
Duke of Leeds.

Hope this is of some interest and helps.
As always, best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 6:18 AM
Subject: List of Bastard Children of King Edward IV of England


> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below is a list of the illegitimate children of King Edward IV of
> England taken from variety of sources. The list includes no new
> names, but I've commented on additional evidence which appears to
> prove the parentage of Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Lumley. Gary Boyd
> Roberts's useful book, RD 500, indicates that there are American
> descendants of Elizabeth Lumley.
>
> There seems to be confusion in surviving records between King Edward
> IV's mistresses, Dame Elizabeth Lucy and Elizabeth Wayte. I suspect
> the two women were separate and distinct individuals. King Edward IV
> is alleged to have had issue by Elizabeth Lucy prior to his marriage
> to Queen Elizabeth Wydeville in 1464. I presume that issue was King
> Edward IV's bastard daughter, Elizabeth Lumley, who married in or
> before 1477. Elizabeth Wayte's son, Arthur, on the other hand,
> doesn't occur in records as an adult until 1501 and didn't marry until
> 1511. This suggests a rather wide gap in ages between the two
> bastards, Elizabeth Lumley and Arthur Plantagenet. My best guess is
> that Elizabeth Lumley was born say 1460/2 and that Arthur Plantagenet
> was born say 1475.
>
> If anyone has any corrections or additions to the list below, I'd
> appreciate it if they would post them here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail:
>
> - - - - - - - -
> List of illegitimate children of King Edward IV of England:
>
> Illegitimate child of Edward IV of England, by an unknown mistress,
> possibly Elizabeth Lucy:
>
> i. ELIZABETH PLANTAGENET, married before 1477 THOMAS LUMLEY, son and
> heir apparent of George Lumley, Knt., Lord Lumley, by Elizabeth,
> daughter and heiress of Roger Thornton, Esq. They had one son,
> Richard [Lord Lumley], and three daughters, Anne (wife of Robert Ogle,
> 4th Lord Ogle), Sibyl (wife of William Hilton, Knt., de jure 9th Lord
> Hylton), and Elizabeth (wife of Robert Cresswell). Descendants (not
> traced). [Note: Additional evidence of Elizabeth's parentage may be
> seen in the papal dispensation granted in 1489 for Elizabeth's son,
> Richard Lumley, to marry Anne Conyers, they being related in the [3rd
> and] 4th degree of kindred. A dispensation was needed for this
> marriage, as the two parties were both descended from Ralph Neville,
> K.G., 1st Earl of Westmorland, and his wife, Joan Beaufort (see
> Testamenta Eboracensia 3 (Surtees Soc., vol. 45) (1865): 355)].
> Surtees Soc. 41 (1862): 27 (1530 Vis. Durham) (Lumley pedigree:
> "Thomas Lumley, son and heyre to George, maried Elisabeth, bastard
> doughter to Kyng Edward the iiijth"). R. Surtees, Hist. & Antiq. of
> the County Palatine of Durham 2 (1820): 163-164. H.S.P. 16 (1881):
> 189-190 (1563/4 Vis. Yorkshire) (Lumley pedigree: "Thomas Lord Lomley
> son & heyr to George = Elsabeth bastard doughter to Kyng Edward the
> Fourth"). C.P. 7 (1929): 30 (sub Hylton); 8 (1932): 274 (sub Lumley);
> 10 (1945): 33-34. TAG 50 (1974): 81-86. M.S. Byrne, The Lisle
> Letters (1981) [citing Harleian MS. 4033, f. 21 (23) v; Leland's
> Itinerary VI, f. 63]. Chris Given-Wilson & A. Curteis, Royal Bastards
> of Medieval England (1984), pp. 160-161,179.
>
> Illegitimate child of Edward IV of England, by a mistress, Elizabeth
> Wayte:
>
> i. ARTHUR PLANTAGENET (otherwise ARTHUR WAYTE), K.G., King's Spear,
> Esquire of the Body, Vice-Admiral of England, Governor of Calais,
> Warden of the Cinque Ports, Privy Councillor, born say 1475 (presumed
> to be "my Lord the Bastard" mentioned in an Exchequer account dated
> 1477, first occurs as an adult in 1501). He married (1st) 12 Nov.
> 1511 ELIZABETH GREY, suo jure Baroness Lisle, widow of Edmund Dudley,
> Esq. (beheaded 18 Aug. 1510), and daughter and heiress of Edward Grey,
> Knt., Viscount Lisle, by his 1st wife, Elizabeth, daughter of John
> Talbot, Knt., Viscount Lisle. They had three daughters, Frances (wife
> of John Basset and Thomas Monke), Elizabeth (wife of Francis Jobson,
> Knt), and Bridget (wife of William Carden). In 1514 he was captain of
> the Vice-Admiral's ship "Trinity Sovereign." He attended the King at
> the Field of Cloth of Gold in 1520. In consequence of his marriage,
> he was created 25 Apr. 1523 Viscount Lisle. In 1528 he purchased the
> manors of Segenworth, Chark, Lee, Sutton, West Stratton, etc.,
> Hampshire from his cousin, John Wayte, Esq., of Titchfield. Arthur
> married (2nd) in 1529 Honor Grenville, widow of John Basset, Knt.
> (died 31 Jan. 1529), and daughter of Thomas Grenville, Knt., by his
> 1st wife, Isabel, daughter of Otes Gilbert, Knt. They had no issue.
> He was imprisoned in the Tower of London on suspicion of treason 19
> May 1540. SIR ARTHUR PLANTAGENET, Viscount Lisle, died there 3 Mar.
> 1541/2. His widow, Honor, was buried at Logan, Cornwall 30 Apr. 1566.
> Modern descendants (not traced). G.F. Beltz, Memorials of the Most
> Noble Order of the Garter (1841), pg. clxxii. H.S.P. 2 (1870): 74-75
> (1619 Vis. Leicester) (Gray pedigree: "Elizab. [Gray] Nupta Edm.
> Dudley postea Arthur Plantagenet"); 16 (1881): 308-310 (1563/4 Vis.
> Yorkshire) (Talbot pedigree: "Elsabeth [Talbot] doughter & sole heyre
> [1] = Edmond Dudley on of the Prevy Consell to Kyng Henry 7th., [2]=
> Arthur Plantagenet bastard son to Edward IV. 2 husband"). J.L.
> Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pp. 46-47,569.
> List of Early Chan. Proc. 5 (1912): 288,358,465,472.473; 6 (1922):
> 109,134. C.L. Scofield, Life and Reign of Edward the Fourth 2 (1923):
> 56,161. C.P. 8 (1932): 63-68 (sub Lisle). Cal. of Ancient Deeds -
> Series B Pt. 3 (List & Index Soc., vol. 113) (1975): B.10780, B.12180.
> Ancient Deeds Series BB (List & Index Soc., vol. 137) (1977), pp.
> 80-81,83,90. M.S. Byrne, The Lisle Letters 2 (1981): 63 (Arthur
> Plantagenet styled "cousin" by Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury);
> 1 (1981): 481, 4{1981): 140 (instances of Henry Pole, Lord Montagu,
> styled "cousin" to Arthur Plantagenet). Exchequer Ancient Deeds - DD
> Series (List & Index Soc., vol. 200) (1983), pp. 193,207. C.
> Given-Wilson & A. Curteis, Royal Bastards of Medieval England (1984),
> pp. 158,161-174.
>
> Illegitimate child of Edward IV of England, by an unknown mistress,
> _____:
>
> i. GRACE PLANTAGENET, allegedly present in 1492 on the funeral barge
> of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, widow of King Edward IV. C. Ross,
> Edward IV (1974), pg. 316, foonote 2 (citing BM Arundel MS. 26, ff.
> 29v-30v). C. Given-Wilson & A. Curteis, Royal Bastards of Medieval
> England (1984), pp. 158,161-174.
>
>



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