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From: (V. Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.)
Subject: Annalistic Writing - Ancient Ireland: SCIENCE and MYTHOLOGY - Higher Levels of ancient Irish genealogies
Date: 10 Jul 2003 10:56:37 -0700
References: <002601c33783$bbbf5d70$11a7869f@janeteavhviak4> <20030620194521.01946.00001344@mb-m23.aol.com> <004501c33788$e013f4b0$11a7869f@janeteavhviak4> <3ef54950.145544297@news.mindspring.com> <f48e2d5b.0307070544.5fe4b38@posting.google.com> <3F0A4E17.9040707@interfold.com>


"Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote in message news:<>...
> V. Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr. wrote:
> > (Stewart Baldwin) wrote in message news:<>...
> >
> >>The most common opinion among scholars is that contemporary annalistic
> >>writing began in Ireland around the year 550.
> >
> > -------------------------------------
> > REPLY:
> > The evidence of scientific understanding in Ireland,
> > prior to the year [A.D.] 550, invalidates this assertion.
>
> [there then follows an argument that never even mentions
> contemporary annalistic writing, and provides no indication of
> anything having squat to do with annalistic writing]
>
> > The Irish "had a sophisticated understanding of the cycles of
> > the Moon", the Sun and sunlight, as well as patient and careful
> > observations over many years; which of course, PROVES that they
> > were ancient record keepers . . .
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/313720.stm
>
------------------------------------
ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY:
There are many parts to this discussion.
taf, I will give you a review, quickly.

I said that the "Line of Heremon", from
Baoth to Milesius, appears in fact as
anti-Semitic rewriting of Biblical text,
using Bible analogy into a "gentile"
pedigree; such as "In his youth Gaodhal
was stung in the neck by a serpent and
was immediately brought to Moses, who
by laying his rod upon the wounded place
instantly cured him . . ."

Niul being "invited into Egypt by Pharaoh
the King; who gave him the land of Campus
Cyruset, near the Red Sea, to inhabit" is
an apparent rerun of Abraham going down
into Egypt. This carries down in the
recorded pedigree of Lamhfionn, for
"Ireland, which was the place destined for
their future and lasting abode and settlement;
and that not they but their posterity after
three hundred years should arrive there."
This appears to be nothing but a disjointed
rewrite of Abraham's journey and promise
to him and his posterity, to possess the land
of Canaan, to which they later returned, re:
[The Exodus when Moses was 80 years old.]

These Medieval Christian "filtered" Gentile
claims of Old Testament origins for Irish
pedigrees, dressed up as Medieval Royalty
Pedigrees with distorted Time frames,
(but intrinsically Old Testament Hebrew
by content), are gerrymandered anti-Semitic
medieval redactions. They appear to have
been done to specifically eliminate
any Davidic connection. Evaluating the
pedigree outside of religious considerations
shows supporting evidence for historical
validity circa 600 B.C. to the Punic Wars.}

Compare these evaluations with the writings
of Donnchadh Ó Corráin, Department of History,
University College, Cork.
"ABSTRACT: Traditionally Irish early medieval
genealogies were seen as the product of oral
tradition, recorded at an early period by monastic
writers. This is mistaken. No doubt there was an
oral genealogical knowledge, but the genealogical
record is modelled on the Old Testament genealogies."
http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/chronicon/ocorrfra.htm

Donnchadh Ó Corráin states further that "The
genealogies are historical sources wholly based
on a written tradition, there is no convincing
evidence to show that any of these texts are oral
materials later committed to writing, and they
and related documents were produced and preserved
by clerical scholars, often masters of monastic schools."
. . . "genealogies are inspected (déchsain, earlier
déicsiu `look at, inspect, examine') as written texts.
i.e. looked at i.e. read. And the different types of
document mentioned in this list (synchronism, pedigree,
family tree of kings and clerics) occur abundantly
in the genealogical record that survives in the
manuscripts. Occasionally, genealogists tell us
explicitly that they consult written documents . . ."

Donnchadh Ó Corráin states: "The bible was the model
of the Irish genealogists." . . . "The bible is the
only source-model for such bulky genealogical statements,
and I feel sure that the early Irish concept of genealogy
derives from it, and not from any barbarian proclivity
to construct and record orally detailed two-dimensional
statements of kinship." . . . "The scriptures
and especially the Old Testament provided a formal
model for the arrangement and layout of the Irish
genealogies." The Bible "became the sheet anchor
of the genealogical tracts, a vast web of kinship,
binding together all the dynasties of Ireland and
linking them with the great of past times, with all
the nations of the earth, and tracing them in an
unbroken line of descent from Adam."

PLEASE NOTE: "The Irish adopted the Isidorian
schema of the origins of the races of the descent
of the European peoples from Japhet, and incorporated
it into the higher levels of their genealogies."
The answer to the question of the reliablity of
the Irish Pedigrees can be found in the determination
of what part, if any, of the handed down documents,
has "higher levels of their genealogies".

"Secular Learning in Irish Monastic Schools"
"Bede and Aldhelm confirm that Irish monastic schools
also produced secular learning despite their priorities
of promoting religious study and ecclesiastical education.
For example, Bede related an anecdote, attributed to the
Englishman Willibrord, of "a scholar of Irish race who
was well-read in literature but utterly uninterested
and careless in the matter of his eternal salvation"
(HE iii 13). In other words, Bede made it clear that
a student at an Irish monastic school might be more
concerned with the life of the mind than with the
salvation of his soul."
http://www.frontiersjournal.com/back/five/ireland.htm


External evidence from non Irish sources, historically
compared with ancient Irish pedigree internal evidence,
eliminates earlier biblical connections and alters the
given chronological framework, as follows, beginning with:
LAMHFIONN, born circa 955 B.C.
Heber GLUNFIONN, born circa 930 B.C.
Agnan FIONN, born circa 905 B.C.
Febric GLAS, born circa 870 B.C.
NENUALL, born circa 845 B.C.
NUADADH(NUADHAD), born circa 820 B.C.
[Carthage founded ca. 814/813 B.C.; also
approximates "His posterity continued
there to the eighth generation; and
were kings or chief rulers there
for one hundred and fifty years"]
ALLADH, born circa 795 B.C.
ARCADH(AREADH}, born circa 770 B.C.
DEAG(H), born circa 745 B.C.
BRATH, born circa 720 B.C.
(Brigus) BREOGHAN, born circa 695 B.C.
BILE, born circa 670 B.C.
(Galamh) MILESIUS, born circa 645 B.C.
HEREMON, born circa 620 B.C.

The Irish Mil genealogies are military,
ship census and family data, connected by
historical time period after the Battle of Carchemish,
circa 605 B.C., when Tyre was forced to submit to the
rule of Babylonia. The various curses placed against
the sons of Mil so that they could not find Ireland
again, are similar to "the curses leveled against
Tyre should it abrogate its treaty obligations";
i.e., the early data on Ireland contacts reveal
treaty and trade relationships. Just as in the
triad of three Kings in Ireland, [Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht,
and Mac Greine]: "May Baal Shamaim, Baal Malagec and
Baal Saphon raise an evil wind against your ships to
undo their moorings and tear out their mooring pole,
may a strong wave sink them in the sea and a violent
tide [rise] against you".

This curse, taken from Neo-Assyrian Treaties and
Loyalty Oaths, c. 1988, [as reviewed in Tyre
"In the Heart of the Seas"] shows a cultural link
to Irish Texts, #394, "The druids of Ireland and
the poets sang spells behind them, so that they
were carried far from Ireland, and were in distress
by reason of the sea."

Jewish foreign contact is found in the Hebrew word "Ir",
meaning "city" [Irish Texts Society Vol. XVIV - Ir] or
"town" as presented in the word structure of #428,
wherein Ir s. Mil, . . . of his progeny are
Fergus s. Roig with his numerous COMMUNITIES,
and Conall Cernach with his numerous COMMUNITIES.

A Jewish Biblical pattern within the Irish pedigrees
is found in the data concerning Tamar Tephi. Worship
of the Jewish One God concept turns into Celtic Idol
Worship. Zedekiah, last King of Judah (597-586 B.C.),
means "my justice is Yahweh", or "The Lord (is)
righteousness". [Mattaniah]. Irish Tea, is listed as
the daughter of Lughaidh [LIGHT or RADIANCE], the son
of Ioth, son of Breoghan, a son of Bratha [judgment,
gu bràth, for ever (pron. gu bràch) "till Judgment",
so Irish, Old Irish bráth, judgment, Welsh brawd,
Middle Breton breut, Gaulish bratu-, *brâtu-; *brâ,
*bera, judge, decide . . .]

Tamar Tephi's son is Irial Faidh, noted as "prophet";
his son: Eithrial(l) is a learned king who writes a history
and clears seven large woods and much advance made in the
practice of agriculture, (killed);
[NOTE: This follows a pattern between Hebrew non veneration
of groves and trees and replacement (killed) by Conmaol.
Follain (Foll-aich), the direct line heir, is then kept
out of the Monarchy by Conmaol; Tighernmas (Tigernmas),
son of Follain then returns to Ancient Irish Tradition
and restores idol worship, including that of the Sun.]

Continuing, the [large 'islands' of pedigree from Ugaine Mor
. . . down to Tuathal] that [reflect real people and real
relationships], suggests strongly that there was a national
Feis Teamhrach (or "Parliament of Tara") [revising antiquities,
genealogies, and chronicles] from which Ugaine Mor appears,
"fully formed", as well as historical, within the time frame
of Carthage and the Roman Punic Wars era.

FURTHER REFERENCE EXAMPLE:
"Some thoughts on the variety of opinions expressed
about Ceallachan of Cashel and whether or not
Caithreim Cellachain Caisil is based on historical
events or is a work of fiction (or both)."
http://ceallachan.users.50megs.com/opinion.html


Respectfully yours,

V. Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
Genealogy and Family History Internet Web Directory
http://www.academic-genealogy.com/


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