GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-07 > 1058126532


From: "Patricia Junkin" <>
Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection ?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:02:12 -0400


Douglas,
May I first request an observation. Is there a Matilda St. Andrew who m.
William de Veteriponte in the Nottinghamshire pedigree you mention?

As I understand your post, the William who m. Maud Hobridge is a brother to
the Joyce who m. de Mortimer?

The Roger who m. Margaret Bisset d. c. 1238
Roger's son, Alan b. c. a. 1195, d. 1269 m. Elena de Quincy
Roger's son, William d. after 1272 m. Maud Hobridge wid/o John de Trailly
d. 1235.
C 47/14/1/11 Writ to sheriff of Essex: to enquire into the lands, heir etc
of William la Zouche and Matilda his wife. 56 Hen III [1272]. I believe this
William to be the Sheriff of Sussex 1262-3. Joyce's son, William and
grandson, Ralph continued interest in Sussex.

Maud must also have died c. 1272 when her son by John de Trailly issues the
compaint: William La Zuch: Writ of Certiorari 3 Feb. on the complaint of
John de Traylli, that the escheator had taken in to the king¹s hands the
manor of Hibrugg¹, which the said William held by courtesy of England of the
inheritance of Maud the said John¹s mother. Inq. The day of St. Peter ad
Cathedram, 56 Hen.III
Essex. Hobrug¹ manor was not held of his own inheritance, but he held it by
the courtesy of England of the inheritance of Maud, sometime his wife. Sir
John de Trailly is the next heir of the said Maud. C Hen III File 42 (8)

Joyce la Zouche was b. c. 1250 m/. Robert de Mortimer b. 1252

I have Roger of Lubbesthorpe birth 1268, dying 1304.

Could William have married a Johanna after the death of Maud by whom he had
William, father to Roger of Lubbesthorpe?

Pat
----------
>From: (Douglas Richardson)
>To:
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection ?
>Date: Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 1:25 PM
>

> Dear John ~
>
> The 1662-1664 Visitation of Nottinghamshire gives a pedigree of the
> St. Andrew family on pages 19 and 20 (H.S.P., n.s. 5, 1986). Included
> in the pedigree is the family of Roger la Zouche, to whom Milicent de
> Cantelowe, widow of Eudes la Zouche, gave the manor of Lubbesthorpe,
> co. Leicester. The visitation pedigree places Roger la Zouche of
> Lubbesthorpe as the son of William la Zouche, which information agrees
> with contemporary evidence of his indicated parentage. As per this
> pedigree, Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe was the uncle of William la
> Zouche Mortimer, 2nd husband of the well known Eleanor de Clare.
>
> Below is an abstract of the Zouche portion of the pedigree:
>
> Galfridus Vicomes de Porhoet.
> /
> Alanus la Zouche quondam comes Britanniae. = Alicia soror et haeres
> Ranulphi de Beaumeis.
> /
> -----------------------------------------
> / /
> Guiliemus la Zouch, ob. s.p. Rogerus la Zouche =
> frater et haeres /
> 14. H. 3. /
> /
> ------------------------------------------------------
> / /
> Gulielmus la Zouche 1. Alanus la Zouche = Elena filia secunda
> 53 H. 3. filius et haeres, et una haeredum
> = Johanna 33 Ed. 1 Rogeri de Quincy
> / Comitis Wintoniae
> / ob. 24 E. 1)
> /
> ---------------------------------------------------
> / /
> Rogerus la Zouche miles cui = Juliana Jocosa = Dns Robertus
> Milicenta de Montealto (uxor / de Mortumari.
> Eudonis la Zouche sororq et haeres /
> Georgii de Cantilupo) dedit manerium /
> de Lobesthorp in Com. Leic. Willielmus cognomento
> / Zouche =
> /
> /
> Matildis = Rogerus la Zouche = Foelicia uxor 2a
> uxor 1a / miles, 1 E. 3. / 1 E. 3.
> / /
> / ---------------------------------
> / /
> -------------------------------------------- /
> / / / /
> Juliana Margareta Willielmus la Johanna
> soror et cohaeres soror et Zouche miles, uxor
> Will'i la Zouche, mil. cohaeres uxor filius et haeres, Marmaduci
> =Johannes de S. Andrea Willielmi Bredon 22 E.3 et Constable.
> miles, 3 E.3, 14 E.3. 37 E. 3.
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail:
>
>
> wrote in message news:<>...
>> Saturday, 14 June, 2003
>>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> While innocently researching other lines, I noted two websites
>> which allege a connection between the family of La Zouche and the
>> Constables of Flamborough, co. Yorks. The property in question is
>> Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. (or rather a moiety thereof). Details from
>> the websites in question are given below [1].
>>
>> Prior to discounting the connection indicated, I noted that the
>> Constable generation in question shows one Marmaduke Constable who d.
>> 1 June 1378. The pedigree from Burke (Commoners) is problematic (how
>> unusual), but other than giving this Marmaduke a son married to a
>> 'Joan FitzHugh' the 14th/15th century generations appear reasonable.
>> The chronology works with this Marmaduke Constable and his wife being
>> born say 1320/30, with their son Robert being born say 1353, and
>> married 1381 (to Margaret Skipwith) [2].
>>
>> There is support found in PRO records for the inheritance of
>> Lubbesthorpe (or a moiety thereof) by the Constable family, to-wit:
>>
>> ' FILE ref. 26D53/422 - date: Jan. 1399/1400
>> Leics., Lubbesthorpe.
>> Receipt of Sir Robert Conestable to Sir Hugh de Sherlay
>> by hands of Thos. Dodeman for 8 marks, for the farm of the
>> manor of Lubbesthorpe for Easter and Michaelmas 1399.' [3]
>>
>> Contributions from Pat Junkin and others give additional fuel to
>> this fire. In particular, the following information is to be found in
>> the SGM archives:
>>
>> 1. Grant, of 1302:
>>
>> C 143/40/6
>> 'Roger la Zouch to grant a messuage, brushwood, land,
>> and rent in Lubbesthorpe to a chaplain of the chapel of
>> St. Peter there, retaining land. Leic.
>> 30 EDWARD I. [1302]' [4]
>>
>> 2. Evidently from the IPM of Roger la Zouche, d. 1304:
>>
>> "In 1304 Roger la Zouch deceased held the manor of
>> Lubbesthorpe of William la Zouch by the service of the third
>> part of a knight¹s fee; Roger la Zouch, son and heir of the
>> aforesaid Roger was then aged 11 ...." [5]
>>
>> 3. Grants of land in Lubbesthorpe and elsewhere, 1349/50:
>>
>> C 143/292/5
>> 'William la Zouche, late dean of the church of St. Peter,
>> York, and Roger la Zouche, knight, to grant rent in North
>> Witham and Gunby to a chaplain in the parish church of
>> Clipsham. Lincoln. The same to grant messuages and land in
>> Lubbesthorpe to certain chaplains in the chapel of St.
>> Mary there, the said Roger retaining land and rent in
>> Lubbesthorpe.
>> Leic. 23 EDWARD III ' [6]
>>
>>
>> The lineage, as outlined in the website noted below (excluding the
>> erroneous first generation) would appear to be:
>>
>> Eudes la Zouche = Millicent de Cantelou
>> ______________I
>> I
>> Roger la Zouche, younger son, b. say 1277/78 (?),
>> of Lubbesthorpe, Leics.; d. 1304
>> ______________I
>> I
>> Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
>> = 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
>> ____I______________________________________ I
>> I I I I
>> William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
>> (dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress
>> = Marmaduke
>> Constable
>> d. 1 June 1378
>> I
>> I
>> Robert Constable
>> of Flamborough, Yorks. &
>> Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
>> d bef 8 Jan 1400/01
>>
>>
>> Should anyone have further documentation as to the validity of
>> this line (and the connection to La Zouche of Harringworth), I (and
>> other Constable descendants) would appreciate hearing of it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John P. Ravilious
>

This thread: