GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-08 > 1059727909


From: "AGeorgeSand" <>
Subject: Re: An honest question, Re: Annalistic Writing - Ancient Ireland: SCIENCE and MYTHOLOGY -
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:51:49 +0200
References: <15.159fef75.2c483c5d@aol.com> <299f1138.0307191604.4ecb5a0c@posting.google.com> <3F1A435E.9050506@dcn.org> <299f1138.0307201532.7e142153@posting.google.com> <3F1C2159.2030303@dcn.org> <299f1138.0307211951.5434ce48@posting.google.com> <3F20AB6F.90901@dcn.org> <299f1138.0307250656.2d34dbbd@posting.google.com> <3F21870A.6060805@dcn.org> <299f1138.0307251854.4fc11338@posting.google.com> <3F256C72.6000001@dcn.org> <3F25E65E.9010601@interfold.com> <3F2620D1.4030003@dcn.org> <299f1138.0307311944.3abc3276@posting.google.com>


dear Jallan:

"If Germans were tough does that mean that the genealogies in the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle are correct and therefore the god Woden must be
considered an historic person?"

Woden WAS a historic person, before he declared himself a god; he had a
family & his genealogy is somewhat known....

Ceasar Augustus (and many others, including ALL the pharoahs)
also declared themselves gods, but that didnt stop them from being
historical persons... any more than it did Woden & his sons... don't you
ever read before you pontificate? you got a prejudice for Romans because
they had a sense of order?

Woden got the idea of declaring himself a god, from Jesus, in fact... he
hung
himself on a tree, in imitation of Him, and poked out an eye, to gain inner
sight...
Why people think that you become a god by hurting yourself the most,
is another mystery (I rather think gods would enjoy avoiding suffering).

And don' t you think you're somewhat begging the question?
he included the full text because it was quaint and interesting and informed
us as much about the roman author, as about the subject... obviously... I'm
glad it was there; puts the genealogy into a more lively perspective

Perhaps you are killing the messenger, because you have no proof by which to
attack the message? and you do SO want to deny it, that in the absence of
reasons to do so, you will simply yell louder, and about more things, until
finally people assume you might know what you're talking about, and give up?

Hardly a more scientific method than keeping what we have, unproven tho it
be for the moment, until we find better, or some sort of disproof. Why
wouldnt it be, that Rudruighe son of Sithrighe, son of Dubh, son of Fomhor,
son of
Airgheadmhar, son of Siorlamh, son of Fionn, son of Bratha, son of
Labhraidh, son of Cairbre, son of Ollamh Fodla of the race of Ir son
of Mileadh truly did reign, whether for thirty or seventy years and
that his genealogy is correct?

Why would somebody invent that? to fool whom? you? insignificant worm in an
unimagined future? hardly... I'll warrant that it's only by keeping the line
so it can reach critical thinkers willing to go to an effort and search,
rather than tossing it out before hand as probably nonsense -- that any
proof one way or another will be found...

If you were bringing for contemporary annals saying the contrary to that
list, you might have something to say; just rejecting it out of hand, is
pure meaningless bombast, and one wonders why you do it? nothing to do with
honesty, in any case... do you folks get points for making people back down
whether they've got something or not?

If this line has been disproven or proven an intentional fraud, I missed
that; please summarize.... otherwise, lighten up and dig. The line looks
interesting and I wish I had the time to research it! just finding out who
those names represent, what they did and what proof is around about their
links, would be a fabulous education on the period, whether the line panned
out or not... which is part of the interest of such lines.

and I do wish that taf would pontificate in detail on the matter of the
various Geoffrey of Monmouth genealogies; he did more than one, and surely
not all were catering to the same egos; just comparing them amongst
themselves, might show evidence as to what the real links were -- in case
one were interested in establishing the real route back to Zed or
whomever... rather than convincing folks not to try...

The version of the latter which is included in my route back there, were
selected by United Ancestries # 100 on the Broderbund discs, by a
professional genealogist who apparently skipped the bad parts in each,
keeping the parts judged healthy by successive generations of genealogists,
keeping track of progress over the centuries till now... as I say, one may
presume that modern royals can affor'd this sort of scholarly accuracy, and
yet they keep their lines to the Davidic kings, so... ?






----- Original Message -----
From: "jallan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: An honest question, Re: Annalistic Writing - Ancient Ireland:
SCIENCE and MYTHOLOGY -


> "Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." <> wrote in message
news:<>...
> > jallan wrote:
> > . . .
> > > Hill forts and country estates are not urban culture.
> > >
> > > They tell us nothing about whether people of that culture valued
> > > *accurate* tradition or not. The fantastic nature of much that as come
> > > down to us suggests that accuracy in tales was not of great
> > > importance.
> > >
> > > Hill forst and field systems wherehter in Ireland or Sweden or
> > > sub-Saharan Africa or India is irrelevant.
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > REPLY: These comments are not true.
>
> Then demonstrate why not instead of changing the subject with a
> long-winded description of finds in Laois that have nothing to do with
> my words.
>
> > As an example:
> > "Evidence of our Celtic predecessors in Laois
> > can be seen in the landscape throughout the county.
> > For example, you can still see the remains of ancient
> > ring forts on the Heath."
> > . . .
> > "Here archaeologists have found decorated glass beads,
> > a bronze box containing cremated human remains, bronze
> > pin brooches and fragments of stone bracelets. It's a
> > substantial site, consisting of four ring ditches with
> > seven furnaces. The furnaces, used for metal smelting
> > over 2,000 years ago, are evidence of early industry
> > in the area. Iron blades, nails and bronze wire were
> > also found."
> > . . .
> > This is "the first occurrence of an early Iron Age
> > cremation burial within a box that we know of."
> > A culture that valued keeping a cremation burial
> > within a box would also wish to preserve accurate
> > memory and tradition of the individual cremated.
> > http://www.laois.ie/SectionHome.asp?ID=51&MID=1
> > "Laois is the only county in Ireland entirely
> > surrounded by counties that don't touch the sea,
> > and this has helped to give the county a unique
> > character of its own."
> >
> > The Irish genealogies can be evaluated within
> > this historical framework, as to metal smelting
> > circa 2,000 years ago.
>
> So far you haven't *evaluatated* them at all.
>
> > Add to this, the small
> > finds of Roman coins, validating trading and
> > religious links between ancient Ireland and nearby
> > Roman Britain. "At Newgrange in Ireland, rich
> > hoards of Roman coins and jewellery as well as
> > some tools and a few disc-brooches were found
> > (Carson and O'Kelly 1977; Raftery 1994: 210). . ."
> > http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/CITDPress/holtorf/7.10.html
> > Evidence of reuse of ancient cemeteries can be found:
> > "At Knowth in Ireland, at least one house was built
> > at the beginning of the first millennium AD in
> > the middle of the central barrow of the megalithic
> > cemetery, which was transformed into a citadel
> > by digging two concentric ditches (Daniel 1972: 14)."
>
> > [Caesar reports that in Gaul (present-day France),
> > the druids had a an annual council in the center of
> > that region, and that this "Council of Gauls" was
> > presided over by a sort of chief druid, one who had
> > the most prestige among the many. Major decisions
> > affecting all the tribes were settled at the council.
> > This meeting was held on Lughnasa (August 1), a
> > festival along with Beltaine listed on the Coligny
> > Calendar. Caesar also claims that the druids of Gaul
> > often received their training in Britain, and gave
> > much honor to the druids there.]
>
> Long-winded irrelevancies.
>
> Most who care about such things know that the ancient Irish, like so
> many other people, worked int metal, built fortresses, disposed of
> their dead, made jewelry and so forth.
>
> Most who care about such things also know that many such people have
> not left trustworthy records about themselves.
>
> The Romans also did all such things as the ancient Irish did, but
> their own historians refer to the dubious nature of their early
> history, sometimes referring to variant accounts (and occasionally
> providing them), sometimes referring to family names ascribed to
> characters in those supposedly early accounts which are in fact names
> of families known to have immigrated to Rome much later in Roman
> history.
>
> < snip>
> > ... by harvesting the near-present portion of
> > the known genealogies, within these annual meetings,
> > at least back to Caesar.
>
> And how is "at least back to Caesar" demonstratable? Can you really
> demonstrate that every piece of surviving Irish tradition is accurate
> back to the time of Caesar?
>
> > Variations in the genealogies
> > come from internal warfare, indicated by the changes
> > in land patterns, untimely deaths of leaders at Tara, ETC.
>
> I accept those reasons for garbling of tradition. The word "ETC."
> indicates many more.
>
> So the traditions have been garbled.
>
> > http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_time_caesar.htm
>
> This link is irrelevant.
>
> "Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr." <> wrote in message
news:<>...
>
> > The annals themselves have
> > certain observed patterns. Stewart Baldwin
> > incorrectly asserts that all these are oral
> > traditions, memorized and written down or
> > fabricated, circa A.D. 550, by loving Christian
> > Clergy, who, also had a "habit" of burning pagan
> > books, absorbing pagan tradition and converting
> > it into Christian ritual, as well cutting down
> > pagan trees, etc.
>
> You know very well that all documents we have containg details of
> pre-Christian Ireland have come from Christian clerics.
>
> That gives the lie to your claim that Christians would not preserve
> pagan tradition.
>
> They did, unlikely though it may seem.
>
> What are the pagan Irish books you are talking about? Perhaps there
> were accounts too free about pagan practises that were suppressed.
> Perhaps not.
>
> What does any of this indicate about accuracy on any individual point,
> pro or con?
>
> For Denmark also we have a list of pre-Christian kings, as found in
> the writings of Saxo Grammaticus who was an assistant to Bishop
> Absalon. Here also we find pagan lore unhidden.
>
> But we also have, unlike the case in Ireland, variant accounts from
> Icelandic authors (from Christian times) and in the Old English poem
> Beowulf (in which heroes of pagan times are treated by a Christian
> writer) and we can see from this the artificialty of Saxo's combining
> disparate traditions.
>
> > A careful reading of Caesar's remarks shows that
> > his observations of the Gauls closely parallels
> > the format of recorded information concerning
> > Irish royal conflicts. In particular, I note:
> > "There was among the Carnutes a man named Tasgetius,
> > born of very high rank, whose ancestors had held
> > the sovereignty in his state. To him Caesar had
> > restored the position of his ancestors, in
> > consideration of his prowess and attachment
> > toward him, because in all his wars he had
> > availed himself of his valuable services.
> > His personal enemies had killed him when in
> > the third year of his reign, many even of his
> > own state being openly promoters [of that act]"
> > http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.5.5.html
> >
> > Honest intellectual inquiry demands that records
> > shown to be similar in format, circa the time of
> > Caesar, cannot be relegated to a period hundreds
> > of years into the future.
>
> Honest intellectual inquiry would note that puppet lords being killed
> in a rebellion is hardly unique to Caesar's time.
>
> From Shakespeare's Henry V:
>
> << I tell you, captain, if you look in the maps of the 'orld, I
> warrant you sall find, in the comparisons between Macedon and
> Monmouth, that the situations, look you, is both alike. There is a
> river in Macedon; and there is also moreover a river at Monmouth: it
> is called Wye at Monmouth; but it is out of my prains what is the name
> of the other river; but 'tis all one, 'tis alike as my fingers is
> to my fingers, and there is salmons in both. >>
>
> > Also, honest intellectual
> > inquiry notes international trade in this time
> > period, when reading about "[6.24]
>
> Honest intellectual inquiry would notice that there is scarcely a
> society on earth that does not particpate in international trade. You
> might as well notice that the people have mostly two eyes, two hands,
> and two feet. It would be as relevant.
>
> > And there
> > was formerly a time when the Gauls excelled the
> > Germans in prowess, and waged war on them offensively,
> > and, on account of the great number of their people
> > and the insufficiency of their land, sent colonies
> > over the Rhine. . . . Which nation to this time
> > retains its position in those settlements, and has
> > a very high character for justice and military merit;
> > now also they continue in the same scarcity, indigence,
> > hardihood, as the Germans, and use the same food and
> > dress; but their proximity to the Province and knowledge
> > of commodities from countries beyond the sea supplies
> > to the Gauls many things tending to luxury as well
> > as civilization." Additionally, "the Belgians, a
> > group of tribes that were, according to Caesar
> > the toughest of all Gauls. They are farthest away
> > from the culture and civilized ways of the Roman
> > province, and merchants, bringing those things
> > that tend to make men soft, very seldom reach them;"
> > http://www.livius.org/ea-eh/edges/edges03.html
>
> What have Belgians and Germans to do with the accuracy of medieval
> accounts of pre-Christian Ireland.
>
> Is your logic that because Belgians were tough therefore, for example,
> Rudruighe son of Sithrighe, son of Dubh, son of Fomhor, son of
> Airgheadmhar, son of Siorlamh, son of Fionn, son of Bratha, son of
> Labhraidh, son of Cairbre, son of Ollamh Fodla of the race of Ir son
> of Mileadh truly did reign, whether for thirty or seventy years and
> that his genealogy is correct.
>
> If Germans were tough does that mean that the genealogies in the
> Anglo-Saxon Chronicle are correct and therefore the god Woden must be
> considered an historic person?
>
> What is your logic in speaking about people who are not Irish and who
> may or may not have accurately kept far-off history in their
> remembrance?
>
> > BEYOND THE SEA appears in "Now the reason why Maon
> > who was called Labhraidh Loingseach went to France
> > was his relation to the king of the French. For a
> > daughter of the king of the French called Ceasair
> > Chruthach was the wife of Ughaine Mor and mother
> > of his children, namely, Laoghaire Lorc and
> > Cobhthach Caol mBreagh; and Labhradh Loingseach
> > is a son's son to that Laoghaire Lorc. And it was
> > on account of his relation to the French that he
> > sought their protection.
> >
> > Another reason why he went to France rather than
> > to another country is that there was a special
> > friendly understanding between the Leinstermen
> > and the French. Indeed every province in Ireland
> > had formed a special friendly alliance beyond the sea,
> > as the alliance between clann Neill and the Albanians,
> > between the Munstermen and the Saxons, between the
> > Ultonians and the Spanish, between the people of
> > Connaught and the Welsh, as John son of
> > Torna O Maolchonaire, chief professor of seanchus
> > in Ireland, says in the following stanzas:
> >
> > 1. Each is allied to its like,
> > Though they be not of the same stock;
> > The Ui Néill and the Albanians;
> > The Saxons and the Munstermen;
> > 2. The Ultonians and the Spaniards,
> > The battle-stay of every district;
> > The Connaughtmen and the Welsh;
> > The Leinstermen allied to the French.
> >
> > From this alliance between the provinces and the
> > above named countries they became mutually assimilated
> > in manners according to their friendship and affection
> > for one another."
> > http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100054/text039.html
> > Ugaine Mor in history, is found in the great expansion
> > of the La Tene culture, "late in northern and western
> > Europe, confined to the 2nd and 1st centuries B.C.,
> > but with a few 3rd-century finds as well . . . related
> > to the expansion of trade and the formation of oppida
> > . . . and development of social hierarchy . . . Some
> > late cross-Channel migrations are well documented in
> > both written sources and archaeologically . . ."
> > The expansion of Rome led to "the agglomeration of
> > large groups of the population in oppida, most
> > importantly artisans and craft specialists, in the
> > late phase under the leadership of groups of
> > oligarchical nobles."
>
> Bogus.
>
> Labhraidh Loingseach is dated traditionally to the 4th century BCE,
> not the first or second century BCE.
>
> You have changed your sources.
>
> And what do these "French" necessarily have to do with the expansion
> of La Tenne culture?
>
> One would hardly expect to find Franks in Gaul at that period.
>
> Indeed there is no historical reference that any people who called
> themselves "Franks" then existed in Europe (unless you count
> anachronistic references in supposedly pre-Christian Irish traditon).
>
> That there is much truth in extant traditions about pre-Christian
> Ireland is likely.
>
> But the truth mostly cannot be distinguished from such garblings and
> additions as are not obvious fantastic falsehoods.
>
> One might as well try to dig the truth out of the German Nibelunglied
> or the Thiðrekssaga without knowing the true histories of Attila the
> Hun, the Fall of the Burgundians, Eormenrc and Theodoric the Goth in
> which the stories are based.
>
> The Thiðrekssage also provides a long history of Theodoric's
> ancestors, in which not a single name is found to match Theodoric's
> genealogy given by Jornandes.
>
> I suspect the the Irish genealogies are *more* accurate. But it is
> impossible to determine how accurate or inaccurate, especially not by
> pointing out that the Irish actually built forts and traded and held
> conferences.
>
> Jim Allan
>





This thread: