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From: "Gordon Kirkemo" <>
Subject: RE: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:02:21 -0700
In-Reply-To: <55712d2e.0308021825.69f11667@posting.google.com>


John,

Thanks for your response regarding the confusion about William de Saint John
(nee de Port).

Your chart below, and your earlier posting raise another question. You
identify the father of Mabel d'Orval as William while acknowledging
references that suggest his name was Rainald. The basis for this appears to
be chronological, despite the presumption by CP XI, pp. 320-321. I assume
this is based on the death of William being 1179 and the CP note saying he
was in possession of his father's lands before 1155.

I also noted in CP XI, page 320 sub a, a reference to Aureavalle as another
form for Orval. In checking DD for this spelling, I found a William de
Aureavalle on page 294. This William made a grant that was confirmed by
Henry I in 1126 suggesting he was of age by then. If this William is the
same as the one noted in CP, it would seem the chronology could support his
son Richard as the father of Mabel. Keats-Rohan, also in DD page 691,
identifies the husband of Muriel de Saint John as Rainald d'Orival. I think
it is very plausible that Rainald may be an error for Richard (per CP), and
that Richard (son of William) was the father of Mabel.

I am very much interested in your thoughts regarding this.

Gordon





-----Original Message-----
From: John Ravilious [mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:26 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John

Saturday, 2 August, 2003


Dear Gordon, et al.,

I think the confusion is rooted in the same name between William de St.
John (d.s.p. before 1195 - see #1.2 below), son of Cecily de la Haie, and
his
great-nephew William, originally known as William de Port (d. 1239 - see
#1.1.1.1 below), son of Adam de Port and Mabel d'Orval.

I don't have notes on that portion of DD to hand, but if the entry for
William de St. John conflates the two, you have found another correction to
be cited. Presumably, Rosie (Bevan) will see these messages, and advise
- she is compiling these corrections for Dr. Keats-Rohan and the FMG
website.

Hope this is helpful.

John *

_________________________________________


1 Roger de St. John
- --------------------------------------
Death: ca 1130[1]
Father: Ralph de St.-Jean

lord of the Honour of Halnaker, de jure uxoris[2]

'Roger de Sancto Johanne' (DD pp. 690-91)[1]

'... some 140 knights of the familia [of Henry I], led by the brothers
Roger and John of Saint-Jean and entrusted with defending La Motte
Gautier-de-Clinchamps, surrendered to Fulk of Anjou in July 1118
after a siege of eight days.' [Hollister, p. 258][3]

Spouse: Cecily de la Haie[2], heiress of the Honour of Halnaker [1]
Father: Robert de la Haye (-<1156)
Mother: Muriel of Lincoln, heiress of Brattleby, co. Lincs. [2]
Marr: bef 1121[1]

Children: Muriel
William (-<1195)
Robert (-<1203)


1.1 Muriel de St. John
- --------------------------------------

heiress (in her issue) of the Honour of Halnaker, Sussex[2]


re: her husband, William d'Orval:

seigneur d'Orval[2]
made a gift to Lessay, confirmed by Geoffrey of Anjou as Duke of
Normandy, 1151[2]

it is theorised in CP that this is actually Richard (Ricardus) d'Orval,
and that a scribal error misidentified him in the Fundationis
Historia of Boxgrove as Rainald (Reginaldus) d'Orval -
his great-grandfather. See CP Vol XI (St. John), p. 320n et seq.[2]

~ It is shown here that it was probably William d'Orval, father of
Richard based on the chronology and the presumption of using the
name of Rainald d'Orval (Reginaldus) instead of William (Willelmus)


Spouse: William d'Orval
Death: bef 1180[2]
Father: Hugh d'Orval (-<1151)

Children: Mabel
Richard (-<1180)


1.1.1 Mabel d'Orval
- --------------------------------------

heiress of the Honour of Halnaker, Sussex (through her mother) and of
the d'Orval lands[2]
identified in the Boxgrove pedigree, and confirmed (see gift by
William d'Orval confirmed by Adam de Port and Mabel his wife,
after 1180; see CP Vol XI (St. John), p. 320n[2])
first wife of Adam de Port[2]

Spouse: Adam de Port, of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.
Birth: ca 1150[2]
Death: bef 29 Jul 1213[2]
Father: John de Port, of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.
Mother: Maud
Marr: bef 1 Jan 1179[2]

Children: William (-1239)
Joan


1.1.1.1 William de Saint John
- --------------------------------------
Death: 1239[2]

of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.

originally called William de Port

made profer in 1202 of £150 for the lands of his great-uncle
William de St. John in England [the Honour of Halnaker]; his
Norman lands were forfeit in 1204 upon his declaration for John
in the pacification

supporter of King John - Southampton Castle put into his custody on
father's death, 1213; Sheriff of Hants. 1214-1215. Later in the
camp of Prince Louis, 1216, but returned to the King's peace by
Feb 1219/20[2]

Spouse: Godeheut[2]

Children: Robert de St. John, knight, of Basing, Hants. (-<1266)


1.1.2 Richard d'Orval
- --------------------------------------
Death: bef 1180, d.s.p.

heir of his father (possible d.v.p.)

1.2 William de St. John
- --------------------------------------
Death: bef 1195, d.s.p.[1]

lord of the Honour of Halnaker; succeeded by nephew William de Port
(thereafter William de St. John)[2]

Spouse: Olive of Richmond
Death: aft 1162[1]
Father: Stephen of Richmond (-1135), Lord of Richmond
Mother: Hawisa (->1134)

1.3 Robert de St. John
- --------------------------------------
Death: bef 1203, d.s.p.


1. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002
2. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
3. "Henry I," C. Warren Hollister, New Haven: Yale University Press,
2001 [English Monarchs Series].


____________________________


Gordon Kirkemo wrote:

Subj: FW: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John
Date: 8/2/2003 8:42:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: (Gordon Kirkemo)
To:

John,

I noted your posting with interest and some confusion. My confusion comes
from your identification of Adam de Port as the father of the William de St.
John married to Godeheut (Paynel?). Based on DD, page 691, I show this
William (d. by 1195) as the son of Roger de St. John (d. c.1130) and Cecily
de la Haye. DD identifies his heir (by Godehild) as Robert. DD does
identify a William de St. John (d. 1239) as the son (p. 646) of Adam de Port
(d. 1213), but does not identify his wife or any children.

As I look at the chronology, your William seems to fit better, as Robert de
St. John would have to be born before 1195 (death of William identified by
DD), and you show his death as being before 1266. He could easily have been
born before 1195, but this would make William somewhat old as his father, as
he must have been born before 1130.

Is this a DD error, or is there some other explanation? It may be the error
was identified earlier and I just missed it.

Gordon

_________________________


* John P. Ravilious

______________________________


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