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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of Rothesay
Date: 9 Aug 2003 10:41:13 -0700
References: <10e.24de2d93.2c656b83@aol.com>


Dear John ~

You have have correctly identified King Robert II's great-grandmother
as Ellen, wife of Donald, Earl of Mar (died 1297). This Ellen is
known to have been previously married to Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife
(died 1266). Most sources state that Ellen was the daughter of
Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales.

It appears, however, that Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, actually had two
marriages, not one as usually supposed. He married first about 1230
and certainly before 1237 to an unknown daughter of Llywelyn, Prince
of North Wales. This first wife was evidently the mother of Malcolm's
two sons, Colban [8th Earl of Fife] and Macduff [References: J.
Stephenson, Chronica de Mailros [Chronicle of Melrose] (1835): 142
(wife of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, identified as daughter of
Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales; C. Innes, Carte Monialium de
Northberwic (1847): 16-17 (document dated 6 July 1237 mentions
"Maurice, servant of the Countess of Fife")].

Following the death of Malcolm's first wife, he married (2nd) Ellen
_____, evidently a much younger woman. She survived him at his death
in 1266, and married (2nd) Donald, Earl of Mar, by whom she had five
children. Ellen was still living in 1295 [References: J. Balfour,
Scots Peerage 4 (1907): 9-10 (sub Fife); 5 (1908): 577-578 (sub Mar)].

Andrew MacEwen of Maine suspects that Malcolm, Earl of Fife's first
wife was Susanna, a known daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wales,
by his wife, Joan of England. Susanna was living unmarried in England
in 1228, just before Earl Malcolm married a daughter of Prince
Llywelyn. This matter deserves further study.

Special thanks go to Andrew MacEwen for generously sharing his
thoughts and source material on this matter with me. Andrew is the
essence of the expression "gentleman and scholar."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wrote in message news:<>...
> Friday, 8 August, 2003
>
>
> Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,
>
> This acknowledgment by Edward III of a kinship with Robert II of Scots is
> interesting indeed. Assuming that a relationship of 4th cousin (5th degree)
> is alluded to, there is some error (or a very interesting unidentified
> ancestor) in the accepted ancestry of Robert II. Otherwise, the definition of who
> would be recognized as 'consanguineus' by Edward III requires reexamination.
>
> As to the 'accepted ancestry of Robert II', I have provided an AT of same
> below, reflecting the known ancestors to his great-great grandparents. There
> are obvious lacunae, incl. the unknown spouse of Neil, Earl of Carrick
> (himself an acknowledged 'consanguineus' of King John as I recall). I am left with
> the knowledge that an absolute answer is not at hand, but I can suggest a
> previously dismissed solution: that the wife of Donald, Earl of Mar (Elen, #15
> below) was in fact a daughter of Llywelyn, prince of Aberffraw (aka North Wales)
> by his Joan, illegitimate daughter (later legitimated) of King John of
> England.
>
> If this was in fact the case, the relationship would show as follows:
>
> Isabella of = John of England ~ ________
> ___________________I I _ _ _ _
> I I
> Henry III of England Llywelyn Fawr = Joan of
> I P of Wales I England
> I I
> Edward I Donald of Mar = Elen
> I I
> I I
> Edward II Robert _the_ = Isabel
> I Bruce I of Mar
> I I
> EDWARD III Marjory = Walter the
> KING OF ENGLAND Bruce I Stewart
> I
> ROBERT II
> KING OF SCOTS
>
>
> This relationship would be that of 3rd cousin 1x removed - near the 'far
> edge' (say 4th cousin X times removed) of recognized kinship of the time, as
> is now understood.
>
> I will look later, but if someone of the list wishes meanwhile to
> 'dredge up' prior discussions of the identification of Donald of Mar's wife, this
> issue can be reexamined in light of Douglas' Foederal find.
>
> Good luck, and good hunting (to us all).
>
> John *
>
>
> ______________________
>
>
> 1 Robert II of Scotland. Born on 2 Mar 1315 in Paisley.[1] Robert II
> died in Dundonald Castle, Carrick (co. Ayr) on 19 Apr 1390.[1]
> Buried in Scone, Athol (co. Perth).[1]
> King of Scots, 1371 -1390.
>
> Lord High Steward of Scotland, 1327 - 1371
>
> fought at Halidon Hill, 19 Jul 1333
>
> succeeded uncle (David II) as King of Scots, 1371
>
> he m. 1stly Elizabeth Mure,
> 2ndly Euphemia of Ross[1]
>
> cf. Scots Peerage (Kings of Scots)[1],
> Thompson and Hansen 13(1):92 #1078, 14(2):207 #1152[2]
>
> On 22 Nov 1347 when Robert II was 32, he married Elizabeth Mure.[1]
>
>
> 2 Walter Stewart. Walter died on 9 Apr 1326.[3],[1]
> Born in 1292.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward of Scotland.
>
> Lord High Steward 1309-1327[1]
>
> commander (nominal-active commander, Sir James Douglas) of the right
> schiltrom at Bannockburn, 24 June 1314 (Barrow p. 322)[4]
>
> Regent of Scotland during King Robert's expedition to Ireland, 1316[1]
>
> Surety of the Arbroath Declaration, 6 April 1320 (Barrow pp. 424-8)[4]
>
> he m. 1stly Marjory Bruce,
> 2ndly Isabel Graham
>
> In 1315 when Walter was 23, he married Marjory Bruce.[1]
>
> 3 Marjory Bruce. Marjory died on 2 Mar 1315 in in childbirth.[1]
>
> first wife
>
> captured with Queen Elizabeth of Scots (her stepmother) and other family
> members at Tain by William, Earl of Ross, Sept. 1306; following her
> delivery to English justice, she was
> ' .. at first ordered by King Edward to be kept in a similar cage
> [to that housing her aunt Mary Bruce and the Countess Isabel of
> Buchan] in the Tower of London, and not to be allowed to speak
> to anyone, or be spoken to by anyone, save the Constable of the
> Tower. For some unrecorded reason Edward revoked this horrifying
> piece of savagery, and Marjorie Bruce was sent to the Yorkshire
> Gilbertine nunnery at Watton.' [G.W.S. Barrow, pp. 230-1, citing
> Palgrave, Docs. Hist. Scot., 359; and the Chronicle of Guisborough,
> 369][4]
>
> following the English defeat at Bannockburn, June 1314, she and others
> were exchanged for Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex[4]
>
>
> 4 James le Steward. James died in 1309.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward
> of Scotland.
>
> Lord High Steward 1283-1309[1]
>
> created Sheriff of Kintyre [Kintyre, Bute, the Cumbraes and prob. Arran]
> under the ordinance of 1293[4]
>
> Guardian of the kingdom of Scots (elected at the Parliament at Scone,
> April 1286)[4]
>
> supporter of King Robert the Bruce - attended the Scots Parliament at
> St. Andrews, March 1308/9 (Barrow p. 265)[4]
>
> James married Giles (Egidia) de Burgh.
>
> 5 Giles (Egidia) de Burgh.
>
> 'Egidia, sister of Richard de Burgh'
> (SP I:14, citing Cal. Doc. Scot., ii. No. 847)[1]
>
> 6 Robert I 'the Bruce'. Born on 11 Jul 1274 in prob. Turnberry,
> Carrick, Scotland.[4] Robert I 'the Bruce' died in Cardross Castle,
> Dumbartons., Scotland on 7 Jun 1329, he was 54.[4]
> King of Scots, 1306-1329.
>
> 'Robert the Bruce'
> [England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
>
> Earl of Carrick on his father's resignation 9 Nov 1292
>
> murdered cousin John Comyn of Badenoch at Dumfries, 10 Feb 1305/6[4]
>
> his manors of Hatfield Regis, Writtle (and Great Baddow), Essex
> 'taken into the king's hands', 6 March 1305/6 [forfeited] -
> Farrer, HKF II:47[6]
>
> crowned King of Scots 25 Mar 1306 at Scone
> victor of Bannockburn , 24/5 Jun 1314[4]
>
> ref. Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland, G.W.S.
> Barrow
>
> Robert I 'the Bruce' married Isabel of Mar.
>
> 7 Isabel of Mar.
>
> 1st wife[1]
>
>
> 8 Alexander le Steward. Alexander died in 1283, he was 69.[1] Born in
> 1214.[1] Occupation: Lord High Steward of Scotland.
>
> steward of Scotland
>
> one of the Regents of Scotland during the minority of Alexander III,
> 1255
> commander of the right wing against Haakon of Norway, Battle of Largs,
> 1263 (SP I:13)[1]
>
> Alexander married Jean of Bute.
>
> 9 Jean of Bute.
>
> 10 Walter de Burgh. Walter died on 28 Jul 1271.[5] Occupation: Earl
> of Ulster.
>
> Lord of Connaught; Earl of Ulster, 1266-1271
>
> 'Item Ob. dominus W. de Burgo comes Ultonie et dominus Conactie
> prothdolor [sic] v. Kal. Augusti in die sanctorum Nazarii et Celsi.'
> Annales de Monte Fernandi, 1271[7]
>
> ca 1257 Walter married Aveline FitzJohn.[8]
>
> 11 Aveline FitzJohn. Aveline died ca 20 May 1274.[8]
>
> sister and coheiress of Richard, Lord FitzJohn
>
> 12 Robert Bruce. Robert died bef 4 Apr 1304, he was 60.[4],[5] Born
> in Jul 1243.[5] Occupation: Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris;
> Lord Brus.
>
> Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
> [England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
>
> performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands,
> 4 Jul 1295
> summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by writ directed
> 'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[5]
> summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
> 'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[5]
>
> Earl of Carrick in right of his wife; resigned Earldom to son, 9
> Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[4]
>
> In 1271 when Robert was 27, he married Marjorie of Carrick.[5]
>
> 13 Marjorie of Carrick. Marjorie died bef 9 Nov 1292.[4] Occupation:
> Countess of Carrick suo jure.
>
> her husband resigned the Earldom of Carrick to his son 9 Nov 1292,
> following her death[5]
>
> 14 Donald of Mar. Donald died aft 25 Jul 1297.[9] Occupation: Earl
> of Mar ca 1281-1297.
>
> Earl of Mar
>
> Gael. Domhnall
>
> Donald married Elen.
>
> 15 Elen. Elen died aft Feb 1294.[9]
>
> reported by the historian Fordun as a daughter of 'Llywelyn, Prince of
> Wales' (taken to be Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, aka Llywelyn Fawr).
>
> This identification presents chronological difficulties, given her
> reputed birthdate (1234), the reported date of her son Colban
> MacDuff [by first husband Malcolm, Earl of Fife] ca. 1250 and
> additional children by Donald, Earl of Mar from ca. 1272 onward[9]
>
> she m. lstly Malcolm, Earl of Fife,
> 2ndly Donald, Earl of Mar
>
>
> 16 Walter le Steward. Walter died in 1241.[1] Occupation: seneschal
> and justiciar of Scotia.
>
> Walter married Beatrix of Angus.
>
> 17 Beatrix of Angus.
>
> 18 Seumas mac Angus. Seumas died in 1210. Occupation: master of Bute.
>
> Seumas married NN.
>
> 19 NN.
>
> 20 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 17 Feb 1242.[10] Occupation:
> Lord of Connaught.
>
> Lord of Connaught 1206-1227; Justiciar of Ireland 1228-1232
>
> bef 21 Apr 1225 Richard married Giles (Egidia) de Lacy.[10]
>
> 21 Giles (Egidia) de Lacy. Giles (Egidia) died aft 1242.[10]
>
> her maritagium included 5 cantreds in Eoganacht: a fine of 21 April
> 1225 made by one William de Worcester obtained a mandate to the
> Justice of Ireland to give seisin of certain lands,
> '...salvo Ric'o de Burgo quinto cant'do scil cantredo de Joganach
> Cassel que Walt's de Lascy dedit ei i maritagiu cu Egidia filia
> sua; salvo dno Regi homag pdci Rici de Burg de tenemto qd de dno
> R. tenet inf' pdcos cantredos.' [Excerpta I:128][11]
>
> 22 Sir John FitzGeoffrey. Sir John died on 23 Nov 1258.[8] Occupation:
> lord of Berkhamsted, Justiciar of Ireland.
>
> of Shere, co. Surrey and Fambridge, co. Essex
> created Justiciar of Ireland, 4 Nov 1245 (held office until 1256);
> received from Henry III the manor of Whaddon, 14 Nov 1242, and
> the cantred of the Isles in Thomond before 3 Sept 1254[5]
> 2nd husband of Isabel le Bigod [5]
>
>
> aft 1229 Sir John married Isabel le Bigod.
>
> 23 Isabel le Bigod.
>
> she m. lstly Gilbert de Lacy
> 2ndly Sir John fitz Geoffrey
>
> 24 Robert Bruce. Born in 1210.[4] Robert died in Lochmaben Castle on
> 31 Mar 1295, he was 85.[5],[4] Buried on 17 Apr 1295 in Guisborough
> Priory.[5] Occupation: Lord of Annandale.
>
> Lord of Annandale
> [England] of Writtle and Hatfield, Essex & c.[5]
> allegedly designated successor of Alexander II, c. 1251[4]
>
> supporter of King Henry III in England, April 1264 at Nottingham;
> fought at Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264 (captured by de Montfort's
> forces) - ransomed by son Robert[4]
>
> his brother (or son) Richard de Brus had grant of the marriage and
> custody of the lands of Ralph de Tosny, 8 August 1265 * [probable
> as reward for support of King Henry III at Evesham and before -
> originally granted to Humphrey de Bohun and Edmund of Lancaster,
> 12 May 1264][5]
>
> * order for William de St. Omer to delivery him to
> 'Richard' de Brus, 19 Sept 1265 [CP Vol. XII/I,
> Tony, p. 773 and note b, citing Cal. Patent Rolls and
> Close Rolls][5]
>
> competitor for the Scottish succession, 1292[1]
>
> In 1292, the market at Ireby, Cumberland was held by ' Robert de Brus,
> the elder, and Cristiana his wife,' the heir of the grantee [William
> de Ireby] under a charter granted by King Henry III, 29 Nov 1236
> (QW, p. 124).[12]
>
> abt 1240 when Robert was 30, he married Isabel de Clare[1].
>
> 25 Isabel de Clare.[1] Born on 8 Nov 1226.[5] Isabel died bef 10 May
> 1275, she was 48.[5]
>
> 1st wife[1]
>
> 26 Neil of Carrick. Neil died in 1256. Occupation: Earl of Carrick.
>
> Earl of Carrick
>
> Gael. Niall [Latin: Nigellus]
> co-Lord of the Glens of Antrim[1]
>
> 28 William of Mar. William died in 1281. Occupation: Earl of Mar - 1281.
>
> chamberlain of Scotland
>
> 'In 1270 he was sent to England, accompanied by the Abbot of
> Dunfermline, on a mission for the recovery of the Earldom of
> Huntingdon. By a charter dated at Falkland on the 23rd of January,
> 1268, witnessed by his sons, Donald and Duncan, he confirmed to the
> canons of St Andrews the grants made to them by his grandfather,
> Morgund, Earl of Mar, of the church of Tarland, and by his grandmother,
> Countess of Mar, of the church of Migvie; and, further, granted an acre
> of land, lying between the church and the castle of Migvie, for a manse
> to the vicar serving the cure.'
>
> he m. lstly Elizabeth Comyn,
> 2ndly Muriel of Strathearn (Sanders, pp. 100-1)[13]
>
> William married Elizabeth Comyn.
>
> 29 Elizabeth Comyn.
>
> identified as mother of Donald of Mar [Young, p. 159][14]
>
> lst wife of Donald, Earl of Mar
>
>
> 1. "The Scots Peerage," Sir James Balfour Paul, ed.. 1904-1914
> (9 volumes).
> 2. Neil D Thompson and Charles M Hansen, ""A Medieval Heritage: The
> Ancestry of Charles II, King of England"," The Genealogist,
> 2:157-168, 3:25-44, 3:175-194, 4:144-158, 5:64-72, 5:226-239,
> 6:100-103, 6:148-165,, 7-8:137-143, 9:40-44, 10:73-85, 11:63-72,
> 11:184-193, 12:83-90, 12:250-256, 13:92-99, 13:252-256, 14:81-84,
> 14:207-210, 15:99-103, 15:220-224, 16:93-98, 16:227-231, 17:61-64,
> a graphical summary of this ambitious project provided by the
> Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, URL:
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/
> 3. Leo van de Pas, "Stewart Saga - TWO," Dec 12, 1998,
> .
> 4. "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland," G. W. S.
> Barrow, Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
> 5. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
> The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
> and the United Kingdom.
> 6. "Honors and Knights' Fees," William Farrer, Litt.D., London:
> Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:,
> Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
> Warenne.
> 7. "Annales de Monte Fernandi," (annals of the monastery of Domus
> Strada, co. Mayo), University College Cork,
> http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L100005/
> project CELT: The Corpus of Electronic Texts.
> 8. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen
> Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
> Faris).
> 9. John Ravilious, Tim Powys-Lybbe & others, "Elen ferch Llywelyn and
> the Earls of Mar," Nov 21, 2001, , cf.
> early discussion by Suzanne Doig, Richard Borthwick & others (SGM,
> 1997-98).
> 10. "Juliane Fitz Maurice, wife of Thomas de Clare," Douglas Richardson,
> RootsWeb list message (GEN-MEDIEVAL-L), 20 Feb, 2000.
> 11. "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," Charles Roberts, The Commissioners
> of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I (1216-1246), 1835,
> full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in Turri Londinensi
> asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
> 12. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
> www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
> 13. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327,"
> I. J. Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
> 14. "The Comyns: Robert the Bruce's Rivals, 1212-1314," Alan Young,
> Tuckwell Press (East Linton, Scotland), 1997.
>
> _______________________
>
>
> * John P. Ravilious


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