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From: (Reedpcgen)
Subject: Re: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John
Date: 12 Aug 2003 20:11:32 GMT
References: <f5.2feb3ffe.2c6a8ddc@aol.com>


John,

Where I stated that I thought you were wrong was not in the "technicality" of
your statements, but what I read the meaning to be (the direction and goal of
your arguments).

I may have entirely misread your thoughts (something that is a bit impossible
to do anyway), so I apologize for that.

It seemed to me that you were ready to throw away the Paynel identification
comepletely, and in spite of my cautions, seemed bent on maintaining that the
younger Godeheut was daughter of Roger de Toeni IV (born say 1155 - he was a
little boy in 1162) by his wife Constance de Beaumont (their male heir was born
about 1189-90), without ANY QUALIFICATION.

What I have tried to do is not provide a definitive answer, but reasonable
alternative that must be taken into account - even one which is reasonable and
may actually be correct. Again, I am not presenting this as FACT, but as a
working hypothesis that is as likely as anything else

You seemed to still put forward the identification, while not giving a fair
shake to the unknown Paynel/Peverel ancestry, which could still retain a Toeni
connection and account for why Godeheut might retire to Flamstead (which she
may have done simply because it was a beautiful place and quiet).

> Can we say at this point that either (A) or (B) above
> is a fact?

I am not stating it is a fact, but a good working hypothesis. It is, however,
just as factual as the theory that Godeheut was daughter of Constance de
Beaumont. If one main reason for placing the younger Godeheut as daughter of
Constance (de Beaumont) de Toeni is the rarity of her name, by this same
argument one would have to place the elder Godegeut there as well - and
chronologically she woudl fit as daughter of Margaret de Beaumont, where
otherwise we do not know of a daughter named Godeheut who would preclude her
placement there. (Whereas, I know of another Godeheut who is of the gereation
to be placed as daughter of Constance de Beaumont.)

Paul

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