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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of Rothesay
Date: 13 Aug 2003 23:52:30 -0700
References: <18d.1dfa79f2.2c65bfa8@aol.com> <5cf47a19.0308090903.4560fc6b@posting.google.com> <001001c35ea0$5f922f20$1a690044@tu.ok.cox.net> <55712d2e.0308092000.cb6b695@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0308100851.5a6e2a95@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0308130052.540f7946@posting.google.com> <55712d2e.0308130916.54bfdb18@posting.google.com> <rrvkjv88bfjif18e6mai7mt25a7fdb61a1@4ax.com>


Dear James ~

I can confirm the arms of Hungary which you mention in your post.
According to the book, Roll of Arms Henry III, ed. by T.D. Tremlett et
al. (H.S.P., vols. 113-114) (1967), pg. 169, the editor states that
"two coats have been borne for the kingdom of Hungary," namely Barry
argent and gules, AND, Gules a patriarchal cross argent, "which may or
may not stand on a triple mount vert." The editor relates that the
cross appeared under Bela IV, 1235-1270, then disappeared, but
reappeared under Sigismund III, 1386-1437.

I suspect the fourth set of arms you cited involving a swan are for a
family descended from the Counts of Boulogne such as the Counts of
Guines. No arms bearing a swan are found in armorials I checked of
English families for the reigns of King Henry III and Edward I. I
believe the swan arms are probably foreign, just like the arms for
Hungary.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


James Dempster <> wrote in message news:<>...
> On 13 Aug 2003 10:16:55 -0700, (John Ravilious) wrote:
>
> >Wednesday, 13 August, 2003
> >
> >
> >Dear Douglas, et al.,
> >
> > The information you've found in the prior post, re: Richard de Burgh
> > being a kinsman of BOTH Edward I of England and his Queen, Eleanor of
> > Castile, will certainly help in establishing how the de Burghs (and
> > particularly Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, d. 1326) and King Robert
> > II of Scots were related to Edward I (and III).
> >
> > The near descents shared by Edward I and Eleanor of Castile are four:
> >
> <big snip>
>
> Sorry to but in from the cheap seats with something that will no doubt
> lead up blind alleys, but this thread has reminded me of something
> that came up in the last Tak Tent (newsletter of the Heraldry Society
> of Scotland).
>
> In it is a short description of GO MS 36 "Scottish Nobility E" a
> document held by the Chief Herald of Ireland. It probably dates from
> the early seventeenth century so its not contemporary with events, but
> it does have an exceedingly unusual coat of arms for Elizabeth de
> Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I of Scots. The illustration of these arms
> in "Tak Tent" is less than 1cm square but here is a best efforts
> description.
>
> The arms are as follows
>
> Quarterly
> 1st Argent two lions passant Sable
>
> 2nd & 3rd Azure a round object Or (its probably a buckle but it may be
> something else). Imagine the head of a Celtic cross where the centre
> of the cross is missing. A circle with four straight lines crossing
> it, two vertical and two horizontal, which do not meet in the middle
> to form a cross. Any cross bar may be too fine, but they do look very
> like the round buckles in Armorial de l'Europe de la Toison d'Or
>
> 4th Gules a swan Argent
>
> Over all an escutcheon of Hungary, Barry Argent and Gules impaling
> Azure upon a triple mount a patriarchal cross Argent.
>
> The usual arms of the de Burghs were hardly obscure but here they have
> been ignored completely, not only that but the armorial was compiled
> by the Anglo-Irish heraldic establishment rather than a foreign herald
> who might have been reliant on heresay. These rather amazing arms for
> the Earl of Ulster do seem to be saying something about how they saw
> themselves or how later generations of the Anglo-Irish saw them that
> might have been missed before.
>
> I have no ideas if any of the families that link Edward I and Eleanor
> of Castille, discussed by those much more expert than me, had anything
> like these arms, or a claim to Hungary, but I thought it might be
> useful to throw this in.
>
> The St Andrews Fund for Scottish Heraldry hopes to publish a critical
> edition of the MS at some point in the future but it may be some years
> off.
>
> James
>
> James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)
>
> You know you've had a good night
> when you wake up
> and someone's outlining you in chalk.

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