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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of Rothesay
Date: 14 Aug 2003 12:30:54 -0700
References: <18d.1dfa79f2.2c65bfa8@aol.com>


Dear John ~

I think it's rather clear now that the family of Richard de Burgh,
Earl of Ulster (died 1326), was closely related to the English royal
family. But how? You have suggested that Earl Richard de Burgh's
paternal great-grandmother was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
II. Actually I think a better candidate for the father of this woman
is King Richard I. Richard I is known to have had a bastard son,
Geoffrey. King John also accused Richard of being the father of
another son, Henry, who John appears to have later acknowledged as his
own bastard. Obviously if Richard I had a bastard son, he could also
have had a bastard daughter.

If Richard I was father-in-law to William de Burgh, it would still
make Edward III related to Robert II, King of Scotland, in the 5th
degree on at least one side. This works for me. What do you think?
Can you do a kinship chart for us showing Richard I as a possible
father of William de Burgh's wife?

The Burghs can't have been related to the English kings through Queen
Eleanor of Provence, as one of her near kinswomen is known to have
married Richard, the elder son of Richard de Burgh (died 1243). This
Richard de Burgh died soon after marriage without issue and was
succeeded by his brother, Walter de Burgh (died 1271) [References:
Margaret Howell, Eleanor of Provence (1998): 53, 108 (Alice, wife of
Richard de Burgh [died 1248], probable kinswoman of Queen Eleanor);
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 171, footnote e (sub Ulster)];
Matthew of Paris, Matthæi Parisiensis Monachi Sancti Albani Historia
Anglorum 3 (Rolls Ser. 44) (1869): 25].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wrote in message news:<>...
> Friday, 8 August, 2003
>
>
> Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,
>
> An avenue for resolving the relationship between Robert II,
> King of Scots and Edward III of England (found by Douglas
> Richardson in Foedera - 1st post in this thread) has been
> identified.
>
> One near relation of Robert II has been identified as being
> related to Edward I of England, with the relationship not yet
> resolved. In Douglas Richardson's as-yet unpublished manuscript
> for "Plantagenet Ancestry (3rd ed)", there is evidence found in
> the Chancery Warrants. One document in that collection records
> that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326) was styled by
> Edward I as "king's cousin" [1]. The existence of this
> relationship is further supported in the published Letters of
> Edward [II], Prince of Wales, which Douglas also cites as
> identifying this same Richard de Burgh (called "Earl of Ulster"
> in the specific letter) as "cousin" [2].
>
> The ancestry of Richard de Burgh is relatively well known,
> with the significant exception of his great-grandmother, the wife
> of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205). She was
> previously identified as a daughter of Donnell/Domnall O'Brian,
> king of Thomond: this has been corrected, as shown by Stewart
> Baldwin (and possibly others) to show that this individual was
> possibly a wife of William de Burgh, but not the mother of his
> heir and successor in Connaught, Richard de Burgh (d. before 17
> Feb 1242/3) [3]. The identity of the mother of Richard de Burgh,
> ancestor of the Earls of Ulster, then reverted to "unknown".
>
> It now appears likely that this unidentified wife of William
> de Burgh was well connected with the royal house of England. This
> would not be the sole example of such high association for the de
> Burgh family in that generation - witness the marriages of Hubert
> de Burgh, to the Countess of Gloucester as well as a daughter of
> King William _the Lion_ [4].
>
> Given the chronology both for William de Burgh and his
> immediate descendants, I would suggest his wife was likely an
> otherwise unidentified illegitimate daughter of Henry II of
> England. Such a connection would yield the following
> relationships:
>
>
> ~~~ NOTE: The following chart is conjectural ~~~
>
>
> Eleanor = Henry II ~ _________
> of Aquitaine I of England I
> _______________I _ _ _ _ _
> I I
> John of England William de Burgh = NN
> I d. 1205 I
> I ____________I
> I I
> Henry III of England Richard de Burgh = bef 21 Apr 1225
> I d. bef Feb 1242/3 I
> I _____________I
> I I
> * EDWARD I of Walter de Burgh = Aveline FitzJohn
> England d. 28 July 1271 I
> I ____________________I________
> I I I
> * EDWARD II of RICHARD DE BURGH Giles (Egidia)
> England d bef 29 Jul 1326 = James the Stewart
> I * "Cousin" [E I, E II] I
> I = Margaret [de Guines ?] I
> I ____I_______ I
> I I I I
> ** EDWARD III of V Elizabeth Walter the Stewart
> England = Robert _the_ = Marjory Bruce
> I Bruce (2nd wife) I
> V I I
> V ROBERT II
> KING OF SCOTS
> ** "Our Cousin" [E III]
>
>
> If such was the relationship of the de Burghs of Ulster to the
> royal family of England, Richard de Burgh (d. 1326) was 2nd cousin
> 1x removed to Edward I and 3rd cousin to Edward II, both of whom
> addressed him as "cousin". Robert II of Scotland, addressed by
> Edward III of England as "our cousin", would then have been 4th
> cousin 1x removed to that English king. Interestingly, it would
> also make Elizabeth de Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I (the Bruce) of
> Scotland, a 2nd cousin 2x removed to her captor (in 1306) Edward
> I of England.
>
> Good luck, and good hunting.
>
> John *
>
>

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