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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-08 > 1061378649


From: (John Ravilious)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland...
Date: 20 Aug 2003 04:24:09 -0700
References: <1c9.dd8ccd8.2c6d7b55@aol.com> <79a486244c.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>


Wednesday, 20 August, 2003


Dear Tim,

Glad to hear the prior post was of use.

Comments/responses are interspersed below.


Tim Powys-Lybbe <> wrote in message news:<>...
> In message <>
> wrote:
>
> > Thursday, 14 August, 2003
> >
> >
> > Dear Nat,
> >
> > As per your request.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John
>
> Thanks for this; it has provided some extensions to my files.
>
> >
> > _________________________
> >
> >
> > 1 Richard de Burgh. Richard died bef 29 Jul 1326 in Athassel.
> > Occupation: Earl of Ulster 1271-1326.
> >
> > 3rd Earl of Ulster

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> 2nd earl?

No, 3rd Earl by my count. I show Richard de Burgh (d. bef 6 Nov
1248), brother of Walter and uncle of this Richard (d. 1326), as 1st
Earl of Ulster, succeeded by Walter (d. 28 Jul 1271) as 2nd Earl.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >
> > abt 1280 Richard married Margaret de Guines.
> >
>
> <big snip>
>
> > 22 William de Braose. William died in Sep 1211 in Corbeil, France.
> > Buried in Abbe St-Victoire, Paris.
> > Occupation: lord of Brecon.
> >
> > of Bramber, Sussex
> > lord of Braose [Briouze], Normandy, of Abergavenny and Brecon;
> > lord of Limerick, in Ireland
> >
> > received Kington, co. Hereford before 1195 (Sanders, p. 57)
> >
> > acquired Tetbury, co. Glocs. :
> > ' ...Tetbury was granted to William de Breuse
> > [Glos RO D566/T1/1; cf Rot. Cur. Reg. (Rec. Com.) ii 177],
> > possibly on his marriage* to Maud de St Valery, and was
> > confiscated in 1208 after his quarrel with King John.'
> > [*I can only think VCH should have said "in consequence of his
> > marriage", not "on his marriage", as that marriage must have
> > taken place long before c.1191] ' - C. Phillips
> >
> > supporter of King John - captured Arthur of Brittany at Mirebeau,
> > 1 Aug 1202
> >
> > received grant of Gower in recognition of his services
> >
> > suspicions raised against him; ca. 1208 he fled the King's will in
> > fear (his wife and son captured, imprisoned and allegedly starved
> > to death)
> >
> > William married Maud de St. Valery.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


> >
> > 23 Maud de St. Valery. Maud died in 1210.
> >
> > probably had Tetbury, co. Glocs. as her maritagium (subsequently
> > granted to her husband William de Braose, most likely ' in
> > consequence of her marriage' - C. Phillips )
> >
> > captured by royal forces in pursuit of her husband; held to have
> > been starved to death (together with son William) by order of
> > King John, 1210
>
> I can't find any reference to connect Maud to No 46. Can you assist?
> <snip>
>
> >>>>>>>>>> 46 Bernard de St. Valery. Bernard died ca 1191.


Concerning the identification of Maud de St. Valery as daughter
of Bernard, this is based somewhat on onomastic evidence (cf. St.
Valery names - Reginald, Maud, Lauretta/Loretta introduced into de
Braose line with Maud's children) and largely on the identification of
Tetbury, co. Gloucs. - a holding of Bernard de St. Valery - as the
maritagium of Maud.

Cf. the SGM thread <Re: Maud de Beauchamp, wife of Robert
Marmion> (Chris Phillips, Cris Nash, John Ravilious & c.), Sept 2002.
This thread includes the citation provided by Chris Phillips of Cal.
Inq. Misc., vol. 1, p. 534 (C. Inq. Misc. File 64. (29.) ),
identifying relationship of William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick (d.
1298), to Bertha de Braose/Breuse; also, VCH Gloucestershire 11:264,
as to relationship of William de Braose d. 1211 to the family of Maud
de St. Valery and the tenure of Tetbury.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


> >
> > of Tetbury, co. Glocs., Studley, co. Bucks., and Beckley and Horton,
> > co. Oxon.
> >
> > in 1166-7 he paid a fine for livery of Beckley and Horton [his father
> > then already being deceased]
> >
> > made gifts of land to Oseney Abbey, 1182-1189
> > called Reginald in other sources (possible confusion with his son)
> >
> > ' In 1186 he was one of the signatories to the delimitation of the
> > county of Amiens, acknowledging that he held Saint-Valery as a
> > fief of Philip Augustus of France.' DD, p. 698, citing RRAN III,
> > no. 329
> >
> > cf. VCH Gloucestershire 11:264 as to tenure of Tetbury
> >
> > Bernard married Maud.
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> > 63 Aoife [Eva] ingen Diarmaid. Aoife [Eva] died ca 1189.
> >
> > 'Evam Dermicii filiam', Annales Hiberniae, A.D. 1171
> >
> > heiress of Leinster
>
> Eva was not an heiress in the classical sense, though she indeed
> inherited great possessions. She had brothers with issue (CP X, 356,
> note (a) ).


<<<<<<<<<<<<<< INSERT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

True enough; although, one might argue Diarmaid's (Dermot's)
agreements with Richard de Clare (aka Strongbow) constituted his
disinheritance of his sons in favor of Aoife.

(An argument best won on the field......)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


>
> > Styled Countess of Ireland, 1185; Countess of Striguil, 1186
>
>
> > 80 NN.
> >
> > father, name unknown
> >
> > NN married Emma de Lacy.
> >
> > 81 Emma de Lacy.
> >
> > identified as daughter of Walter de Lacy by T. Powys-Lybbe
> > (citing DNB)
>
> I have found a few other books since then, notably Keats-Rohan's
> "Domesday Descendants", Sanders' "English Baronies" and Wightman's "The
> Lacy Family" and then Chris Phillips has done some real research on the
> matter.
>
> The upshot is that it is no longer certain that Emma was the Lacy
> parent of Gilbert: it might have been her brother Roger (K-R, DP, 404)
> it might have been anyone.
>
> <final snip>


Thanks for that; I'll have to delve into the SGM archives a bit
later (hopefully the leads in Sanders will also help in this).

Cheers,

John

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