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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: King's kinsfolk: Robert II, King of Scotland and David, Duke of Rothesay
Date: 20 Aug 2003 08:11:13 -0700
References: <18d.1dfa79f2.2c65bfa8@aol.com> <5cf47a19.0308090903.4560fc6b@posting.google.com> <001001c35ea0$5f922f20$1a690044@tu.ok.cox.net> <55712d2e.0308092000.cb6b695@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0308100851.5a6e2a95@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0308130052.540f7946@posting.google.com> <55712d2e.0308130916.54bfdb18@posting.google.com> <rrvkjv88bfjif18e6mai7mt25a7fdb61a1@4ax.com>


Dear James ~

In the quarterings of Elizabeth de Burgh, wife of Robert I, King of
Scotland, I note that you list the following arms in the first
position:

Argent two lions passant Sable

While arms containing two lions passant are rather common, I note that
King John bore two lions passant as his arms when he was lord of
Ireland [Reference: Coat of Arms 7 (1962): 18–24]. I also find that
King John used two lions passant on his seal [Reference: Archæologia
Æliana 3rd Ser. 17 (1920): 265, 282–286].

While Elizabeth de Burgh was certainly not King John's heiress, it
strikes me that the arms listed for Elizabeth de Burgh are
representative of various marriages in her ancestry, as opposed to the
normal quarterings which reflect marriages only to women who were
heiresses.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

James Dempster <> wrote in message news:<>...
> On 13 Aug 2003 10:16:55 -0700, (John Ravilious) wrote:
>
> >Wednesday, 13 August, 2003
> >
> >
> >Dear Douglas, et al.,
> >
> > The information you've found in the prior post, re: Richard de Burgh
> > being a kinsman of BOTH Edward I of England and his Queen, Eleanor of
> > Castile, will certainly help in establishing how the de Burghs (and
> > particularly Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster, d. 1326) and King Robert
> > II of Scots were related to Edward I (and III).
> >
> > The near descents shared by Edward I and Eleanor of Castile are four:
> >
> <big snip>
>
> Sorry to but in from the cheap seats with something that will no doubt
> lead up blind alleys, but this thread has reminded me of something
> that came up in the last Tak Tent (newsletter of the Heraldry Society
> of Scotland).
>
> In it is a short description of GO MS 36 "Scottish Nobility E" a
> document held by the Chief Herald of Ireland. It probably dates from
> the early seventeenth century so its not contemporary with events, but
> it does have an exceedingly unusual coat of arms for Elizabeth de
> Burgh, 2nd wife of Robert I of Scots. The illustration of these arms
> in "Tak Tent" is less than 1cm square but here is a best efforts
> description.
>
> The arms are as follows
>
> Quarterly
> 1st Argent two lions passant Sable
>
> 2nd & 3rd Azure a round object Or (its probably a buckle but it may be
> something else). Imagine the head of a Celtic cross where the centre
> of the cross is missing. A circle with four straight lines crossing
> it, two vertical and two horizontal, which do not meet in the middle
> to form a cross. Any cross bar may be too fine, but they do look very
> like the round buckles in Armorial de l'Europe de la Toison d'Or
>
> 4th Gules a swan Argent
>
> Over all an escutcheon of Hungary, Barry Argent and Gules impaling
> Azure upon a triple mount a patriarchal cross Argent.
>
> The usual arms of the de Burghs were hardly obscure but here they have
> been ignored completely, not only that but the armorial was compiled
> by the Anglo-Irish heraldic establishment rather than a foreign herald
> who might have been reliant on heresay. These rather amazing arms for
> the Earl of Ulster do seem to be saying something about how they saw
> themselves or how later generations of the Anglo-Irish saw them that
> might have been missed before.
>
> I have no ideas if any of the families that link Edward I and Eleanor
> of Castille, discussed by those much more expert than me, had anything
> like these arms, or a claim to Hungary, but I thought it might be
> useful to throw this in.
>
> The St Andrews Fund for Scottish Heraldry hopes to publish a critical
> edition of the MS at some point in the future but it may be some years
> off.
>
> James
>
> James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

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