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From: Rosie Bevan <>
Subject: Re: The identity of Maud, wife of Sir Ralph Hastings
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 08:49:23 +1200
References: <00d801c38898$c70e1020$cd00a8c0@rosie><01be01c388d1$4e083910$cd00a8c0@rosie> <01b201c38973$5ef27c20$cd00a8c0@rosie><ab9770e6.0310030931.5025c818@posting.google.com>


Dear Jim

Thanks for your message. What I should have said yesterday, was that Maud de
Grey, wife of Thomas Harcourt, is given as daughter of the John, first Lord
Grey and Avice Marmion. This is given on PA2 p.251 and 325.

I showed yesterday from the inquisition that Maud de Grey, widow of John
Botetourt the younger, was the wife of Thomas Harcourt. So there is no doubt
she is the one and same person. The problem is knowing what the exact source
for the information for her placement in the Grey family is in the volume.

Thanks for the reference from AR7. It sounds like a College of Arms document
which is probably not easily accessible. If anyone has access to this
document, it would be worth a look to see what evidence is given with it.

Cheers

Rosie



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: The identity of Maud, wife of Sir Ralph Hastings


> From: (Jim Weber)
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Subject: Re: The identity of Maud, wife of Sir Ralph Hastings
> References: <00d801c38898$c70e1020$>
> <01be01c388d1$4e083910$>
> <01b201c38973$5ef27c20$>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.200.223.130
>
> (Rosie Bevan) wrote in message
news:<01b201c38973$5ef27c20$>...
> > Doug Smith's messages indicate there may be some doubt as to which Maud
was
> > wife of John Botetout d.v.p. 1369
> >
> > CP II 235 gives the following descent, but being the first volume in the
> > series does not give much in the way of primary citations to support
> > statements. Spencer informs me that CP XIV does not contain any
additions.
> >
> > 1.John Botetourt
> > + Maud de Grey dau John 1st Lord Grey of Rotherfield.
> > 2. Issue
> > + Joyce Mortimer
> > 2. John de Botetourt d.v.p. 1369
> > + Maud de Grey dau John 2nd Lord Grey, married secondly Sir Thomas
> > Harcourt.
> > 3. Joyce Mortimer
> >
> >
> > One thing is certain, and that is Maud de Grey was widow of John
Botetourt
> > the younger d.v.p. 1369 and wife of Sir Thomas Harcourt. The evidence
for
> > this is found in John Botetourt the elder's inquisition in 1385.
> > "John Buttetourt, knight
> > 207 Buckingham. Inq. taken at Neuport Paynel, Wednesday before Easter, 9
> > Richard II
> > He held the undermentioned manor for life by grant of Thomas Shirryf,
parson
> > of the church of Sheldesleye, and Henry de Haukeserd, chaplain to him
and
> > Joyce his wife for their lives, with remainder to John their son and
Maud
> > daughter of John de Grey of Retherfield (who is still living and married
to
> > Thomas Harecourt, knight) and the heirs of their bodies, by a fine
levied in
> > the king's court with the king's licence.
> > Neuport Paynell. The manor held of the king in chief by knight's
service.
> > Heir as above, daughter of the aforesaid John son of John and Maud."
> > [CIPM xvi no. 207]
> >
> > Unfortunately there is no indication as to which Lord Grey was the
father of
> > Maud from the inquisition.
> >
> > Dr Faris in PA2 has Maud wife of John Botetourt the younger as daughter
of
> > the first Lord Grey and Avice Marmion. On what evidence it is difficult
to
> > tell from the difficult nature of the referencing. Joyce was born in
1363
> > (22 in 1385) which places Maud's birth around the 1340s. Unfortunately
this
> > is very close to 1350-1360 when John 2nd Lord Grey was fathering his
family.
> > It would be useful to settle the conflict as there is further evidence
in
> > support of the Hastings/Grey marriage.
> >
>
> Dear Rosie, et al.
>
> I have been following all of the devlopments, but have had all-day
> meetings the last two days (along with "social" dinners at night), so
> haven't had any time to do anything but look.
>
> The only hint I have for a source on Maud being daughter of John 1st
> Lord Grey by his 2nd wife Avice Marmion, comes from Ancestral Roots,
> line 30-31. AR gives "Dudley Pedigree, Herald's College, 28 Jan 1937,
> approved by A.T. Butler, Windsor Herald" as the source for Maud de
> Grey's generation. MCS line 50-6, agrees with AR line 30-31, but says
> nothing about its source.
>
> I confirm CP II:235's reference to Maud as daughter of John 2nd Lord
> Grey (and volume XIV's not correcting it). However in my copy of
> Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd Edition, 1999, I can find no
> reference to John Botetourte, the younger, or to Maud de Grey, or her
> parents John 1st Lord Grey & Avice Marmion. Are you sure you are not
> referring to the 1st edition?
>
> Jim Weber
>
>

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