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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-10 > 1065215099


From: Rosie Bevan <>
Subject: Re: The identity of Maud, wife of Sir Ralph Hastings
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 09:06:59 +1200
References: <00d801c38898$c70e1020$cd00a8c0@rosie><01be01c388d1$4e083910$cd00a8c0@rosie><4fad4bf0.0310020937.1c4bf14d@posting.google.com><4fad4bf0.0310021607.526ba97e@posting.google.com><5cf47a19.0310022204.33fd001f@posting.google.com><ab9770e6.0310031026.5c318388@posting.google.com>


In addition although Douglas Richardson has chosen to reject the identity of
Maud as a Berghersh, I think certain evidence tells us to keep an open mind
about it.

Apart from the name of Bartholomew for the second son, which must be treated
as of some significance, CP VI 147 (k) records
"Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh petitioned [the Pope] (Papal Reg. Kal Aug.
1366) on behalf of Sir John Grey of Rotherfield and Maud his wife and others
for plenary remission at the hour of death....Maud de Grey was probably
sister of the petitioner."

Cheers

Rosie





----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: The identity of Maud, wife of Sir Ralph Hastings


> (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message
news:<>...
> > (Doug Smith) wrote in message
news:<>...
> > > (Doug Smith) wrote in message
news:<>...
> >
> > > Generation 2
> > >
> > > 2. Sir John III de2 GREY 2nd Lord Grey of Rotherfield (John II de1),
> > > born 1319; died 4 Jun 1375. He married Maud de BURGHERSH.
> > >
> > > Notes for Sir John III de GREY 2nd Lord Grey of Rotherfield
> > > Clay, pps 92-93.
> > >
> > > 5. Sir Robert (Marmion) de2 GREY (John II de1), born abt 1345 in
> > > Ravensworth, Yorkshire; died Bef 30 Nov 1367 (dspm). He married Lora
> > > de SAINT QUENTIN, born 1342 in Wiltshire, England; died 1369 in
> > > Brandsburton, Yorkshire, England, daughter of Sir Herbert de SAINT
> > > QUENTIN and Margery de LISLE.
> >
> > Dear Doug ~
> >
> > With respect to your statement that John de Grey, 2nd Lord Grey of
> > Rotherfield (died 1375), married Maud de Burghersh, I know of no
> > evidence which suggests that Maud was a member of the Burghersh
> > family. As such, some time ago, I removed Maud's identication as a
> > Burghersh from the manuscript of my forthcoming book, Plantagenet
> > Ancestry. I presently show a blank for her maiden name. If you have
> > any evidence which might indicate Maud's family name, I'd certainly
> > appreciate knowing about it.
> >
> > As for your statement that John de Grey's half-brother, Robert, was
> > known as "Robert (Marmion) de Grey," I have found a few records of
> > this Robert in contemporary medieval records. In all of them he is
> > simply called Robert de Grey, never Robert Marmion. As such, it
> > appears to be an error to call him Robert Marmion.
> >
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> >
> > E-mail:
>
> Dear Douglas,
>
> I have seen references (among them AR 219-32) that Robert took the
> name of Marmion. However CP VIII:522 and CP VI:147 note (a) indicate
> that it was his elder full-brother John who took the name Marmion. In
> note (a) CP states:
>
> (a) By her [Avice Marmion] he [John de Grey] had two sons. (1) Sir
> John de Grey, who assumed the name of Marmion was aged 16 and more in
> 1359, and was heir to West and East Tanfield, etc., in co. York, and
> Quentin, co. Gloucester (Chan. Inq.p.m. 25 Oct 33 Edward II [1360], on
> Sir John de Grey, and Excheq. Inq.p.m. 33 Edward III, 14 (18)). (2)
> Sir Robert de Grey, who d. bef. 30 Nov 1367, s.p.m., when the manor of
> Wilcote (Oxford) reverted by settlement to his half-brother Sir John
> de Grey (Lord Grey) 30 Nov 1367. His daughter and heir Elizabeth m.
> Henry, Lord FitzHugh, and became heir of her uncle the said Sir John
> Marmion and of her mother, Lora, younger daughter and coheir of Sir
> Herbert de St. Quentin. [Complete Peerage VI:147 note (a)]
>
> Obviously Robert's father had two sons named John, one born c1319 or
> c1329 (aged 30+ or 40+ in 1359 - father's death), by his first wife;
> and the one mentioned in note (a) above b. c1343.
>
> This probably explains the confusion about Robert taking the name
> Marmion.
>
> Jim Weber
>
>

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