GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-01 > 1073408620


From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: Joan / Constance Gray, wife of Richard Le Strange
Date: 6 Jan 2004 09:03:40 -0800
References: <18e.2446285f.2d29eb81@aol.com> <bte419$175$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>


Dear James, Chris, etc. ~

I made a couple of corrections and additions to Chris' Grey tables
below. As Chris correctly noted, the Grey of Wilton table is the most
deficient. Elizabeth, wife of Henry de Grey, Lord Grey of Wilton (she
is #3 in Chris' Grey of Wilton table), is stated in a garbled
visitation to be the daughter of Thomas Talbot. Yet, Complete Peerage
ignores this completely and states that she was daughter "it is said"
of Gilbert, Lord Talbot. I have no idea where Complete Peerage got
the idea Elizabeth was daughter of Gilbert, Lord Talbot, unless it was
from an unpublished manuscript pedigree at the College of Arms.

Here is the visitation citation which names her as the daughter of
Thomas Talbot:

H.S.P. 2 (1870): 74–75 (1619 Vis. Leicester) (Grey pedigree: "Henricus
Dn's Gray de Wilton ob. 19 R. 2. = Elizab. fil. Tho. Talbot").

I appreciate the interest of James, Chris, Louise, and others in
trying to resolve the identity of Joan (alias Constance) Grey.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail:

"Chris Phillips" <> wrote in message news:<bte419$175$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> James W Cummings wrote:
> > I intend to attempt
> > the same sort of thing with Grey of Wilton, Grey of Codnor and Grey of
> Ruthin
> > unless someone else beats me to it.
>
> I worked out the immediate ancestors of what I thought would be the
> prospective parents of Joan/Constance from these families a while ago
> (although not covering as many generations as you have for the Stranges and
> Greys of Heton).
>
> Here are my attempts (mainly from the Complete Peerage):
>
> CODNOR
>
> Ancestry of a hypothetical daughter of Sir Richard (Grey), Lord Grey of
> Codnor
>
> (1) Daughter
>
> (2) Sir Richard (Grey), Lord Grey of Codnor, b. 1371 or earlier, d.1418
> (3) Elizabeth [daughter and coheir of Ralph (Basset), Lord Basset of
> Sapcote], b.1372, m. before 1378
>
> (4) Sir Henry de Grey, d. before 1392
> (5) Joan [daughter of Reynold (de Cobham), Lord Cobham]
> (6) Ralph (Basset), Lord Basset of Sapcote, b. before 1309, d.1377
> (7) Alice [daughter of John Driby], d.1412
>
> (8) Sir John (de Grey), Lord Grey of Codnor, d.1392
> (9) Alice [daughter of Warin de Lisle], m 1330 or earlier
> (10) Reynold (de Cobham), Lord Cobham, b.c.1295, d.1361
> (11) Joan [daughter of Thomas (de Berkeley), Lord Berkeley], m. before 1348,
> d.1369
> (12) Simon Basset, d.1328
> (13) Isabel [daughter of William (Boteler), Lord Boteler of Wem], m. before
> 1309, d. after 1328
> (14) John de Driby
> (15) Amy de Gavaston
>
> [CP vol.2, pp.7,8 (Basset of Sapcote); vol.3, p.353 (Cobham of Sterborough);
> vol.6, pp.125-129 (Grey of Codnor)]
>
> RUTHIN
>
> Ancestry of a hypothetical daughter of Reynold (Grey), Lord Grey of Ruthin
>
> (1) Daughter
>
> (2) Reynold (Grey), Lord Grey of Ruthin, b.c.1362, m 2ndly 1404 or later,
> d.1440
> (3) (1st wife) Margaret [daughter of Sir Thomas (de Ros), Lord Ros], m. 1378
> or shortly after;
>
> (4) Reynold (de Grey), Lord Grey of Ruthin, b. about 1319, d.1388
> (5) Eleanor le Strange, m. 1360 or later, d.1396
> (6) Sir Thomas (de Ros), Lord Ros, b.1336/7, d.1384
> (7) Beatrice [daughter of Ralph (de Stafford), Earl of Stafford], m. lic.
> 1358/9, d.1415
>
> (8) Sir Roger (de Grey), Lord Grey of Ruthin, d.1352/3
> (9) Elizabeth [daughter and in her issue heir of Sir John (de Hastinges),
> Lord Hastinges] [v.14:m.1311 or earlier]
> (10) John (Lestrange), Lord Strange of Blackmere
> (11) Ankaret [daughter of William Boteler of Wem]
> (12) William (de Ros), Lord Ros, d.1342/3
> (13) Margery [daughter of Bartholomew (de Badlesmere), Lord Badlesmere],
> b.c.1306, m. before 1316, d.1363
> (14) Ralph (de Stafford), Earl of Stafford, b.1301, m 1stly prob. abt
> 1326-7, d.1372
> (15) Margaret [daughter of Hugh (de Audley), Earl of Gloucester], m. 1336 or
> earlier, d. 1347/8 or later
>
> [CP vol.6, pp.151-158 (Grey of Ruthin); vol.11, pp.98-101 (Ros); vol.12, pt
> 1, pp.174-177 (Stafford);
> pp.343,344 (Strange of Blackmere); pp.353,354 (Strange of Knockin);
> corrections to Grey of Ruthin in vol. 14]
>
> WILTON
>
> Ancestry of a hypothetical daughter of Henry (Grey), Lord Grey of Wilton
>
> (1) Daughter
>
> (2) Henry (Grey), Lord Grey of Wilton, b.1340 or earlier, d.1396
> (3) Elizabeth [daughter, it is said, of Thomas Talbot]
> m.1379/80 or earlier, d.1401/2
>
> (4) Reynold (Grey), Lord Grey of Wilton, b.1311, d.1370
> (5) Maud [daughter, it is said, of Sir John Botetourt, of Weoley, co.
> Worcester], m. 1327/8 or earlier, d.1391
> [vol.14 corrects this to - apparently da of Sir Richard de la Vache - though
> chronologically it looks possible that Sir Richard could have been her
> maternal grandfather]
> (6) [?] allegedly Thomas Talbot
> (7) [?]
>
> (8) Henry (de Grey), Lord Grey of Wilton, b.1281 or 1282, d.1342
> (9) [it is said] Anne [daughter and heir of Ralph de Rockley]
> (10) [?] allegedly Sir John Botetourt
> (11) [?]
> (12) [?]
> (13) [?]
> (14) [?]
> (15) [?]
>
> [CP vol.6, p.175-178 (Grey of Wilton); vol.10, pp.116-119 (Ormond); vol.12,
> pt 1, pp.612-616 (Talbot)]
>
> The Grey of Wilton pedigree is surprisingly full of holes, to the extent
> that some uncertainty is indicated about 7 out of 8 great grandparents of
> the hypothetical daughter. If "Lord le Grey" is really a baron, Grey of
> Wilton looks likeliest. But I still think it's worth thinking about younger
> sons and other Grey famlies, in case "Lord" is translating something less
> than a baron.
>
> Chris Phillips

This thread: