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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-01 > 1075497849


From: "~Ford~" <>
Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:24:09 -0600
References: <200401300745.i0U7jRip009534@lists2.rootsweb.com> <401AC9A1.D1BEBD88@cowboy.net>


Primarily, I was attempting to add some dates. Yes, I did put the marriage
of 1279 in the wrong slot. Not double-checking, and I apologize!
I have, (more carefully), added a little information to the T'angs. Have
not been able to determine which one invented powdered orange juice, though.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The Williams Family
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help
to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
> to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
>
> Sincerely,
> Kelsey J. Williams
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Leo van de Pas
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
> >

Li Min Hui
Li
Li On Ching
Li Liang
> > Li Hu
> > Li Bing, Duke of T'ang, ob. 572, m. Lady Tuku Yüan Chên (of interesting
ancestry)
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu, (High Progenitor) 618-626, (Li Yuan, v. 566-635),
m. Tu T'ai Mu
> > Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung, (Supreme Ancestor) 626-649, (Li Shih-min, n.
599), m. Wen-te, ob. 636
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung, (High Ancestor) 649-683, (Li Zhi, n. 628), m.
Empress Wu 690-705, (n. ca. 625), dt. Wu Shihou by
> > Lady Yang, (related to Sui dyn.)
> > Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung, (Far-sighted Ancestor) 684-690, 710-712, (Li
Dan, v. 662-716), m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> > Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung, (Profound Ancestor) 712-756, (Li Lomg-ji, n.
685), m. Yang Guifei, (related to the Sui dynasty)
> > Emperor T'ang Su Tsung, (Respectful Ancestor) 756-762, (Li Yu, n. 711)
> > Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> > Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> > Sharwin I 772-797
> > Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> > Shahriyar I 797-825
> > Qarin I 837-867
> > Abul Melik
> > Surkhab
> > Abul-Hamza
>
> At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He
states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
> daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain
Vasak Artsrouni whom he supposes to be a brother of
> Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very
little information on any of these people and
> it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a
further examination of the primary evidence to
> confirm or deny this.
>
> I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to be unproven until
further evidence comes to light.
>
> >
> > Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
>
> He was born in 879 and d. 943/44.
>
> >
> > Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
>
> Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married
Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).


Any speculation, here? I ask this, realizing that it is ONLY speculation.
But maybe someone has something more concrete?


>
> >
> > Derenik
>
> Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely
be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).
>
> >
> > Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042
>
> Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his
death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).
> Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually
means he is guessing or going on very vague
> evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted
him on to the place that fit best in the main
> Artsrouni family tree.
>
> >
> > Hasan
> > Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
>
> Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92).
There seems to be no evidence for the forename
> Hasan.
>
> >
> > daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110
>
> Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by
Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoff
> gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).
>
> From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather
well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
> give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places
where there are errors. For the generations
> before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more
uncertain.
>
> >
> > Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
> > Auschin II, 1125-70
> > Hetum III, 1151-1218
> > Constantine I, 1220-49
> > Hetum IV, ob. 1250
> > Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
>
> The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
>
> The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this
chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
> (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
>
> >
> > Guy d'Ibelin
> > Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
>
> Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be
listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (the
> last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18
Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
> Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).
>
> >
> > Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
> > James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
>
> His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 &
"A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.
>
> >
> > Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
>
> Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita
del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco del
> Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval
Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).
>
> The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a
confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
> Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483),
daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
> this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although
a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
> Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from
primary sources would be nice to unravel this
> tangle.
>
> See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A
Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.
>
> >
> > Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
> > Louis
>
> These two generations should be eliminated. See above.
>
> >
> > Peter
> > Marie m. Francis Bourbon
> > Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
> > Mary m. James V of Scotland
> > James VI
>
> The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in
Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: The
> Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.
>
> >
> > Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
> > Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
>
>
> [C]ertainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of
Lampron.

It beseemeth me that the genealogies of Central Asia hold the key to this
conundrum. I reïterate my earlier question, does anyone have tables of the
rulers of the Khazars, Cumans, Polovetsy, Turks, or others that might bring
enlightenment?

Respectfully,

-Ford-

'Blessings on thee, little man,
Barefoot boy, with cheek of tan!
With thy turned-up pantaloons,
And thy merry whistled tunes;
With thy red lip, redder still
Kissed by strawberries on the hill;
With the sunshine on thy face,
Through thy torn brim's jaunty grace;
From my heart I give thee joy, --
I was once a barefoot boy!'
John Greenleaf Whittier, 'The Barefoot Boy'




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