GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-01 > 1075497849
From: "~Ford~" <>
Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:24:09 -0600
References: <200401300745.i0U7jRip009534@lists2.rootsweb.com> <401AC9A1.D1BEBD88@cowboy.net>
Primarily, I was attempting to add some dates. Yes, I did put the marriage
of 1279 in the wrong slot. Not double-checking, and I apologize!
I have, (more carefully), added a little information to the T'angs. Have
not been able to determine which one invented powdered orange juice, though.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The Williams Family
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Emperor Su-tsung 756-762 Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
> I have some concerns with part of this line, see below. It may help
to read this post backwards (from Queen Elizabeth
> to Li Hu) as that is the order in which I wrote my comments.
> Kelsey J. Williams
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Leo van de Pas
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: A New Thread: Bridging the Gap
Li Min Hui
Li On Ching
> > Li Hu
> > Li Bing, Duke of T'ang, ob. 572, m. Lady Tuku Yüan Chên (of interesting
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsu, (High Progenitor) 618-626, (Li Yuan, v. 566-635),
m. Tu T'ai Mu
> > Emperor T'ang T'ai Tsung, (Supreme Ancestor) 626-649, (Li Shih-min, n.
599), m. Wen-te, ob. 636
> > Emperor T'ang Kao Tsung, (High Ancestor) 649-683, (Li Zhi, n. 628), m.
Empress Wu 690-705, (n. ca. 625), dt. Wu Shihou by
> > Lady Yang, (related to Sui dyn.)
> > Emperor T'ang Jui Tsung, (Far-sighted Ancestor) 684-690, 710-712, (Li
Dan, v. 662-716), m. 2ndary Consort Tu
> > Emperor T'ang Hsuan Tsung, (Profound Ancestor) 712-756, (Li Lomg-ji, n.
685), m. Yang Guifei, (related to the Sui dynasty)
> > Emperor T'ang Su Tsung, (Respectful Ancestor) 756-762, (Li Yu, n. 711)
> > Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
> > Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan) 755-772
> > Sharwin I 772-797
> > Karim <-- (omitted in some sources) -->
> > Shahriyar I 797-825
> > Qarin I 837-867
> > Abul Melik
> > Surkhab
> > Abul-Hamza
> At this point Toumanoff diverges from the descent given in this chart. He
states that Mlke, wife of Gagik II, was the
> daughter of a certain Abu Hamza or Gregory Artsrouni, son of a certain
Vasak Artsrouni whom he supposes to be a brother of
> Abu Beldj Artsrouni (d. ca. 850) (Toumanoff, pp. 90-91). He provides very
little information on any of these people and
> it is conceivable that he may have made a mistake but it would require a
further examination of the primary evidence to
> confirm or deny this.
> I would consider the genealogy above Abu Hamza to be unproven until
further evidence comes to light.
> > Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin) 908-943/4
> He was born in 879 and d. 943/44.
> > Abu as-Sahl Hamazasp III 958-972
> Abu Sahl or Hamazasp III, Prince Artsrouni (958/59 - 969). He married
Gaday, of uncertain parentage (Toumanoff, p. 91).
Any speculation, here? I ask this, realizing that it is ONLY speculation.
But maybe someone has something more concrete?
> > Derenik
> Nothing is known of this Derenik but Toumanoff considers him to definitely
be a son of Hamazasp (Toumanoff, p. 91).
> > Katchik I, Pr. T'ornavan 1042
> Khatchik I "le Sourd", Prince of Tornavan from an unknown date until his
death in battle, 1042 (Toumanoff, p. 92).
> Toumanoff gives only a dotted line from him back to Derenik which usually
means he is guessing or going on very vague
> evidence. Since Khatchik is known to be an Artsrouni I imagine he grafted
him on to the place that fit best in the main
> Artsrouni family tree.
> > Hasan
> > Abul Gharib, Gov. Tarsus
> Byzantine Governor of Tarsus, ca. 1075 to aft. 1080. (Toumanoff, p. 92).
There seems to be no evidence for the forename
> > daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron), ob. ca. 1110
> Given as "N. Ardzouni, d. of Abul'gharib, Governor of Tarsus" by
Rudt-Collenberg (_R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]). Toumanoff
> gives the same filiation (Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie_, pp. 92-93).
> From Oshin I, Lord of Lampron, to Elizabeth II of Great Britain is rather
well-trodden ground so I have not bothered to
> give any specific details on the people in this chart other than in places
where there are errors. For the generations
> before Oshin I have included more details as the line seems more
> > Hetum II, ob. ca. 1143
> > Auschin II, 1125-70
> > Hetum III, 1151-1218
> > Constantine I, 1220-49
> > Hetum IV, ob. 1250
> > Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin
> The 1279 marriage date given below actually applies to this marriage
(Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
> The generations from Alix of Lampron back to Oshin (or Auschin as in this
chart) I, Lord of Lampron, are sound
> (Rudt-Collenberg, _R, H & L_, Chart II [H1]).
> > Guy d'Ibelin
> > Alix d'Ibelin m. (1279) Hugh de Lusignan
> Hugh & Alix are nos. 1592-1593 of "A Medieval Heritage" and ought to be
listed in the next issue of _The Genealogist_ (the
> last issue ended on 1591). They did not marry in 1279 but instead on 18
Jun 1318 (see Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
> Hethumides & Lusignans_, Chart XI [I]).
> > Jacques I m. Helvis of Brunswick
> > James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon
> His name was Janus, not James, see Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617 &
"A Medieval Heritage", No. 398.
> > Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)
> Pierre I de Luxembourg, Comte de St. Pol (1390-1433) married Margherita
del Balzo (1394-1469), daughter of Francesco del
> Balzo, Duca di Andria, & Sueva Orsini (Thompson & Hansen, "A Medieval
Heritage", Nos. 392, 393, 786 & 787).
> The incorrect connection between Pierre I and Marguerite is due to a
confusion of Pierre I with his grandson & namesake
> Pierre II (c.1439-1482) who DID marry Marguerite di Savoia (1439-1483),
daughter of Ludovico and Anne above. Note that
> this daughter is not given in my old series edition of ES Band II although
a daughter Maria who married Pierre II's father
> Louis as his second wife is given. Some explanation and confirmation from
primary sources would be nice to unravel this
> See: ES (old series) II: 112; Sturdza, _Dictionnaire_, pp. 616-617; "A
Medieval Heritage", Nos. 196-197.
> > Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433
> > Louis
> These two generations should be eliminated. See above.
> > Peter
> > Marie m. Francis Bourbon
> > Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise
> > Mary m. James V of Scotland
> > James VI
> The generations from Comte Pierre II to James VI & I can be traced in
Thompson & Hansen's "A Medieval Heritage: The
> Ancestry of Charles II, King of England" and present no problems.
> > Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria
> > Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover
> [C]ertainly there are other descents from the Artsrouni and the Lords of
It beseemeth me that the genealogies of Central Asia hold the key to this
conundrum. I reïterate my earlier question, does anyone have tables of the
rulers of the Khazars, Cumans, Polovetsy, Turks, or others that might bring
'Blessings on thee, little man,
Barefoot boy, with cheek of tan!
With thy turned-up pantaloons,
And thy merry whistled tunes;
With thy red lip, redder still
Kissed by strawberries on the hill;
With the sunshine on thy face,
Through thy torn brim's jaunty grace;
From my heart I give thee joy, --
I was once a barefoot boy!'
John Greenleaf Whittier, 'The Barefoot Boy'