GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-04 > 1080967766
From: ロイ・グレイディ <>
Subject: Re: Munderic, Lord of Vitry-en-Parthois b. ca. 500, killed 532
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:49:26 +0900
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Thank you for the clarification of this matter and corrections and my
apologies if I have created any confusion. I really should not have strayed
so far from the topic of the Latin Gregory used for Vitry. Viewing the
chart you refer to I see that it is suggested by Settipani that Artemia was
not Munderic's wife but (speculatively) possibly the mother of Munderic's
wife. Thank you also for the information from Professor Kelley. His
comments and ideas on the relationship between the Arnulfings and the
Syagrii (as I saw it in Ancestral Roots almost 20 years ago and also with
additional material cited in Moriarty's Book on Plantagenet Ancestry
concerning the Ruricii and the connections to the Anicii) seemed quite
extrordinary to me at the time and were what first made me interested in
this field. While the Anician connections of the Ruricii have no doubt
properly taken pride of place in the discussions of this era, I have
watched with great interest and considerable enjoyment in your newsgroup and
in various publications the development and refinement of hypotheses
concerning the details of possible Carolingian era nobility connections to
Gallo-Roman families of the late imperial era.
"Don Stone" <> wrote in message
> Grady Loy wrote:
> > As to the lordship of Munderic. There has long been the suggestion by
> > various writers (Kelley, Weiss, and recently Settipani) various places
> > Munderic could be the son of Cloderic the Parricide of the royal house
> > the Riparian Franks. Gregory says that Clovis was kin to ths house but
> > how. It has also been suggested that the woman by whom Clovis had his
> > son Theuderic may have been a woman of the Frankish Riparian family.
> > Unfortunately I do not at this point remember who exactly made that
> > suggestion. However, if true, from Munderic's viewpoint, Theuderic
> > then be viewed as a relative on his mother's side and in a sense the
> > Riparian territories were still in Riparian hands but Munderic might
> > his claim was more justified by a direct male dissent. Or it may have
> > one of those situations where (as was so common with the Merovingians)
> > Munderic sensed that if he did not take some action Theuderic would
> > eventually have him killed on some pretext or other.
> > As to why Gregory related this story and knew in some detail who did
> > killing, if as has been asserted (Kelley, Settipani with slightly
> > interpretations) Munderics wife was Artemia and this Artemia was either
> > Gregory's ancestress or a near relative, this story would have come
> > him through his family.
> In yesterday's mail I received a package from Prof. Kelley including a
> comment on this. He says that he does not believe that Gundulf, son of
> Artemia, is identical with Gundulf, son of Munderic, and therefore no
> thinks that Artemia was Munderic's wife.
> In a message to soc.genealogy.medieval dated 2001-05-07, Christian
> > Arnulf is a son of Bodogisel according to texts of 9th c. The Vita
> > Gundulfi adds that he was the nephew of Gundulf, son of Munderic. This
> > Gundulf, (great-)uncle of Arnulf, could be the nephew of a first
> > Gundulf, son of Artemia, sister of Sacerdos, bishop of Lyons.
> > For the value of these late texts and the confirmations they have in
> > reliable sources, see now my paper in ' Onomastique and Parente ', p.
> > 185-229.
> These relationships are diagrammed on p. 229, Tableau 10: Conclusion: Les
> ancêtres de Arnulf.
> -- Don Stone