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From: Peter Stewart <>
Subject: Re: Charlemagne to Agnes Harris
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:34:48 GMT
References: <5B5872B2.510A9EEB.007FA2F6@aol.com> <41304cdc$0$6043$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>
In-Reply-To: <41304cdc$0$6043$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>


Pierre Aronax wrote:
> <> a écrit dans le message de
> news:...
>
>>"> Generation 1
>>
>>>Karloman/Charlemagne, Charles the Great, King of the Franks and Emperor
>
> of
>
>>>the Holy Roman Empire (742-813) + Hildegarde of Vinzgau (757- 782)
>>>parents of Pepin (below).
>>
>>I know your interest is genealogical and not historical, but pay some
>>attention to the titles: Charles and Karloman are two different names;
>>Charles was not "Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire".
>>
>><....>
>>
>>>Hugh Magnus, Duke of Francia,
>>
>>And Hugh the Great was not Duke of Francia but Duke of the Franks.
>>
>>Pierre"
>>
>>In the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 1992, article on Eudes (Odo) the brother
>
> of Robert I, they state that he was "...King of France (or West Francia)..."
> 888-898.
>
>>His nephew Hugh is styled "Count of Paris"
>>Then his son Hugh Capet b c 938 is styled "King of France"
>>
>>I'm not really sure what territory West Francia would have covered in
>
> Eudes time, but then his brother Robert I is styled "King of France" 922-3,
> a very short reign.
>
> West Francis is what will become France later, as opposed to East Francia
> which will become Germany. But actually, the title used by king Robert I as
> by king Eudes was simply "king of the Franks". Although it is traditional
> and so perfectly proper to call them "king of France", all the kings before
> Philip II August would be more correctly referred to as "king of the
> Franks".

This is right, but as with practically all titles in the 10th and 11th
centuries there are a few exceptions - although "king of the Franks" was
by far the most common usage for the first Capetians, differing examples
can be found: for example, the second continuator of Ado of Vienne
described Hugo Capet before he became king in territorial terms as
"totius Francie, Burgundiae, Britanniae et Normanniae dux et princeps"
(duke and ruler of all Francia, Burgundy, Brittany and Normandy).

By the way (to save replying to another post in this thread) the
counting of indictions in Hugo's time was even messier than with
calendar & regnal years, and every possible anomaly occurs...plus a few
extra, that are quite unfathomable. There are circus animals that can
count better than some medieval monks.

Peter Stewart

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