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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-08 > 1093785487


From: "Pierre Aronax" <>
Subject: Re: Charlemagne to Agnes Harris
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:20:03 +0200
References: <5B5872B2.510A9EEB.007FA2F6@aol.com> <41304cdc$0$6043$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net> <cdZXc.10922$D7.8438@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <41306a7c$0$9774$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net> <fY_Xc.11056$D7.6859@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <41307f7f$0$21654$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net> <Q_%Xc.11114$D7.10888@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <41309988$0$18254$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net> <G2aYc.11491$D7.10870@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <4131b5e3$0$30798$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net> <K3jYc.12259$D7.11332@news-server.bigpond.net.au>


"Peter Stewart" <> a crit dans le message de
news:K3jYc.12259$...
Pierre Aronax wrote:
> "Peter Stewart" <> a crit dans le message de
> news:G2aYc.11491$...

<snip>

>> No objection on that. My point was only that to translate "Andegavorum
>> comes" by "count of Anjou", particularly in a general discussion, is not
a
>> problem since what is Anjou is not a big problem, same thing for calling
a
>> "Francorum rex" a "king of France", since "king of France" is indeed the
>> correct translation of "Francorum rex" in the 13th century and after (so
for
>> coherency why not calling the previous kings also "king of France"?). But
>> "Francorum dux" is a different animal: it does not mean "count of France"
or
>> "count of the vassals in France", or at least that is not so clear that
>> "Francorum dux" here means only an authority over the people living in a
spe
>> cific geographical aera rather than a dignity between all the Franks in
all
>> the kingdom. There is a county of Anjou, but what would have been exactly
a
>> duchy of France is less clear. That is way I think it is better to
translate
>> "Francorum dux" by "duke of the Franks", and that is what French
historians
>> generally do, even when the call Hugh Capet, for example, "king of
France"
>> (and not "king of the Franks").

> Without refuting your opinion, I think that (quite apart from the odd
> informal use of "dux Francie") the title "Francorum dux" can be taken to
> mean "duke of Francia" in the limited sense that the holder was uniquely
> placed within Francia between the king and all the other territorial
> rulers.

That's exactly how I understand the title. However, at least in French, "Duc
de France" looks to imply a territorial dukedom of France distinct from
France/Francia (the kingdom) and comprised inside it, which can be
confusing. At least, that's how I feel it.

> In other words, there was a dukedom of France, but not a duchy.

Exactly. I would not have express that so well because of my poor English.
Nevertheless, I maintain that it is better, for the abovesaid reason and in
view of the short existence of the title and of the rarity of the word
"Francia" to designet it, to call the duchy "duchy of the Franks" rather
than "duchy of France".

Pierre


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