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From: James Dempster <>
Subject: Re: Scottish Tribes of Jewish Origin???[More about Moir]
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:54:29 +0000
References: <193.33164e8d.2ece14b1@aol.com>


On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:08:02 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

>In a message dated 11/18/2004 9:53:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> writes:
>
>> One thing I do find interesting is that the Mure arms, before they where
>> quartered with the Comyn arms, is that they are a variant of the Morey/Murry
>>
>> arms, I have wondered if this family is not an alternate spelling of that
>> name.
>> Terry
>>
>
>According to Black's _Surnames of Scotland_ Murrie/Murry is a Perthshire
>surname and a form of Murray. Same with the name Murie.
>
>In _The Book of Irish Families, Great and Small_ it states that Murray ranks
>among the top ten names in all of Ireland. Murry in common in Dublin,
>Ireland. From the Gaelic: O Muireadhaigh, Mac Giolla Mhuire, Murry, Kilmurray,
>Murrihy, McMury, etc. O'Muireadhaigh is centered in Ballymurry, in the barony of
>Athlone, County Roscommon. MacMurry were chiefs in Loghmoyltagh.
>
Some of the Scots Murrays are of course of Flemish origin from various
land grants made in the 12th century, especially in the region of
Moray. Freskin "the Fleming" aka Freskin de Moravia was the founder of
what is now the ducal house of Atholl.

Other Murrays may well have the modern surname Murray on the basis of
a similar derivation of the Irish surnames.

Use of three stars in Scottish heraldry is often based on Flemish
ancestry. I have described the origin of the Murrays (Azure three
stars Argent) above. The Inneses (Argent three stars Azure) descend
from Berowald the Fleming who was granted the lands of Innes in Moray
and the Sutherlands (Gules three stars Or) are a junior branch of the
de Moravias. Both differenced their arms by means of a colour change.

Whether the Douglas stars (used by some branches but not others) came
from their descent from the same group or can solely be due to their
inheritance of the de Moravia fief of Bothwell is a matter of debate.

What is worth remembering is that arms that are a pun on a surname are
generally newer than the surname.

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

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