GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-01 > 1105214667
From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Identity of Lleucu, wife of Geoffrey de Camville
Date: 8 Jan 2005 12:04:27 -0800
References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com>
Dear Sir ~
Thank you for your good post. The information you posted was very
The records you present certainly give an explanation as to how the
Camville inheritance went to the Stafford family, albeit by a possible
exchange of lands between the Vernon and Stafford families. They do
not immediately explain why the Stanley family (the successors of the
Stafford family) included the Camville arms among their armorial
quarterings. I have seen one instance of a family who quartered the
arms of another family from whom they inherited the lands, but which
they were not directly descended. If so, I suppose it is possible for
someone to quarter the arms of a family whose lands they inherited, but
which they were not technically the heirs. This would be a bit
unusual, to say the least. A more likely explanation is that the
Stanley family quartered the Camville arms in error. When convenient,
can you provide the reference which shows the Camville arms being
included in the memorial brass to Sir William Vernon (d.1467) at Tong,
Shropshire? This would be good evidence that Maud de Camville was
truly the ancestress of the Vernon family.
I searched the A2A Catalogue just now for the exchange deed you
mentioned involving Bishop Edmund de Stafford and Richard de Vernon. I
didn't find the deed in question, but my search was somewhat cursory.
I did find one deed involving Bishop Stafford which is presented below.
As you can see, Bishop Stafford was serving as a trustee for his
nephew, Sir Thomas de Arderne, in this record.
Birmingham City Archives: Elford Hall Collection, MS 3878/31.
Grant dated 10 July 1385 from Thomas Dardene, knt., to Master Edmund de
Stafford, lord of Clyfton, Sir Henry de Tymmore, Canon of the Cathedral
Church of Lichfield, Lady Elizabeth of Berkeley of the manor of
Elleford, with lands in Etheles, Lichefeld, Kynges - bromeley, Alrewas,
together with the advowson of the Church of Elleford. co. Staff. Seal,
wax, red, circ., device, helmet and shield, legend.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> Dear Douglas,
> you have voiced a valid concern about the descent of the Vernons from
> Maud de Camville, given the subsequent devolution of her inheritance.
> However, a case can be made to support William de Vernon's maternity.
> Firstly, in the Feodary of Tutbury, as reproduced in John Pym
> Feudal History of the County of Derby vol.1 section 2, on page 495 we
> find "Rich Vernon and Magister Edmund Stafford hold the manors of
> Bromcote, Grendon, Shepeye, and Basturley [all in Leics.], for 3
> Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter (1344-1419) was the surviving
> legitimate son and heir of Sir Richard Stafford, and Shepeye and
> Grendon, at least, were certainly Camville lands; this would imply a
> shared Camville descent. In the intricate (but not entirely accurate)
> pedigree at page 982* of Nichols's Leicester vol.3 part 2 we have Sir
> Richard de Stafford "of Clifton in part" and his son Bishop Edmund
> "lord of Clifton by exchange with Richard Vernon and guardians". This
> may give a clue- Shaw's Staffordshire vol.1 page 404 gives as an
> evidence for the pedigree a "deed of bp.Edm.Staff.cop. in Huntb[ach]
> No.2", which evidently dates from 1402-3 and involves Richard de
> Vernon, then a minor, son of the late Richard de Vernon of Harleston
> and his wife Joanna, then living. (If anybody can locate the text of
> this deed, it should settle the matter.) Although Richard de Vernon
> (dead 1323) was betrothed while a minor to Eleanor, daughter of Giles
> de Fenes, she would not appear to be a candidate for William's
> as she was dead by 1302 (see, for instance, VCH Bucks, sub Pitchcott)
> and William is described as being 10 years old at his father's
> inquisition in 1323 (CIPM Edw.II, vi.238). Richard was married to
> by 1313, as there is an enfeoffment of "Richard son of Richard de
> Vernon and Maud his wife" dated Sunday after the Purification, 6
> (HMC Rutland, iv.28).
> As for the heraldry, it is significant that the arms of Pype are
> mentioned, as although the manor of Pipe was held by the Staffords
> Stanleys, there was no blood succession. The new ODNB describes how
> Richard, Lord Stafford of Clifton acquired this manor at the expense
> the blood heir, his mother Margaret (nee Bassett) having remarried to
> Sir Thomas Pipe. Stafford's second wife Maud Stafford also brought
> claims to the Pipe lands; but again, she was not the mother of his
> posterity. So it seems that the shields that Earwaker records
> the acquisition of lands, by whatever means, by the ancestors of John
> Stanley (query whether he was a knight, although his father -also
> certainly was one). Clifton and other Camville lands (in part?) may
> have been a marriage portion, later enhanced by exchange; the arms of
> Camville also appear among those of other heiresses on the memorial
> brass to Sir William Vernon (d.1467) at Tong, Shropshire, and on all
> later such Vernon heraldry.
|Re: C.P. Addition: Identity of Lleucu, wife of Geoffrey de Camville by "Douglas Richardson " <>|