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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-08 > 1123312175


From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:09:35 -0600
References: <1e.4a9d180c.3023ad22@aol.com> <1123200317.130180.322710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1123201219.480115.182770@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <42f3e964@news.ColoState.EDU> <03b701c59a13$2b0aee80$0300a8c0@Toshiba> <dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <Y_YIe.73167$oJ.44007@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
In-Reply-To: <Y_YIe.73167$oJ.44007@news-server.bigpond.net.au>


Peter Stewart wrote:
> "Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote in message
> news:dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
>
>>Leo van de Pas wrote:
>>
>>>Dear Todd,
>>>
>>>A guideline, no cast-iron proof, is Schwennicke ES Volume II Tafel 76.
>>>
>>>Here is shown that Guillaume VII-IX le jeune had by Maubergon or
>>>Dangerose both wife of Amaury de Chatellerault the following children
>>>Raimond, Prince of Antiochia
>>>Henri Abbot of Cluny
>>>Agnes/Mathilde wife of (1) Aimery de Thouars (2) Ramiro II King of Aragon
>>>Adelaide wife of Raoul de Fays
>>>Agnes Abbess of Saintes
>>>Guillaume Count of Valentinois ancestor of the family
>>>Poitiers-Valentinois
>>>
>>>Tafel 76 gives as sources
>>>Erich Brandenburg Nachkommen Karl's des Grossen
>>>Siegfried Rosch Caroli Magni Progeni
>>>Jacques Saillot Le Sang de Charlemagne

[snip]

>>As usual, in failing (yet) to definitively answer one question, we have
>>raised another. Every source I have seen to date (and obviously, I have
>>not seen ES) has shown Agnes, wife of Ramiro II of Aragon as daughter of
>>William by Philippa/Matilda of Toulouse.
>
>
> There's not much room to doubt that Agnes was the daughter of Philippa.
> Szabolcs de Vajay placed the birth of Agnes in 1103, at a time when by all
> evidence her father was living as the husband of Philippa, whom he deserted
> for his mistress a decade or so later. Agnes was first married shortly
> before 9 January 1117, that fits neatly enough with her birth in 1103 or a
> few years earlier.
>
> We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married Philippa
> in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
> namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had five
> daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above] was
> married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit quoque
> quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi).

That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro &
Agnes article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." -
without the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to
Thours (what was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to
document the parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves
out the meat).

> So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
> attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
> amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
> actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
> William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
> illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
> fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in 1180,
> many decades after Mauberge had died.

So much for ES. Is this Saillot's doing? Brandenburg is blameless - he
lists just three children of William, all by Philippa/Matilda: Wm, Ray,
and Aggie.

taf

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