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From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:42:05 GMT
References: <1e.4a9d180c.3023ad22@aol.com> <1123200317.130180.322710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1123201219.480115.182770@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <42f3e964@news.ColoState.EDU> <03b701c59a13$2b0aee80$0300a8c0@Toshiba> <dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <Y_YIe.73167$oJ.44007@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>


"Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote in message
news:dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
> Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

>> We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married
>> Philippa in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons
>> (his namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also
>> had five daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted
>> above] was married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge
>> habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti
>> Toarcensi).
>
> That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro & Agnes
> article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." - without
> the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to Thours (what
> was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to document the
> parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves out the meat).

Well, Vajay is not alone in that sort of cursory quoting practice, and at
least he gave some of the text - his generation came at the end of a time in
which all readers were imagined to be denizens of great European librairies,
with ready access to sources, and/or to be ready to take the author's word
for whatever was asserted about the contents.

>> So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
>> attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
>> amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
>> actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
>> William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
>> illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
>> fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in
>> 1180, many decades after Mauberge had died.
>
> So much for ES. Is this Saillot's doing? Brandenburg is blameless - he
> lists just three children of William, all by Philippa/Matilda: Wm, Ray,
> and Aggie.

I don't have ES neue Folge II to check for any further sources (I think Leo
probably has the only copy of this volume in Australia). Rsch surely did
not provide the information, as he didn't follow the Poitou line down to
William the Troubadour. Maybe it came from Saillot. However, Schwennicke and
his collaborators tend to be sloppy and credulous when it comes to French
lineages, sometimes even throwing together speculations that cancel each
other out, and the bibliographies can be next-to-useless indicators since
they sometimes ignore the better references in favour of worse, or prefer
their own ideas willy-nilly. Judging from the corrections to Band II that
were published in III, this was not his best effort.

Peter Stewart


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