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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-08 > 1123535375


From:
Subject: Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Date: 8 Aug 2005 14:09:35 -0700
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In-Reply-To: <CxcJe.73714$oJ.8215@news-server.bigpond.net.au>


Peter Stewart wrote:
> Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
> about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was the
> youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094. The
> relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on p.
> 419) is under 1099 as follows:
>
> "Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
> supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
> vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
> Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
> William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
> five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars. Youngest
> among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later ruled
> in Antioch).
>
> Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
> Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had a
> son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
> Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there, but
> the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named "the
> Tolosan".
>
> Peter Stewart

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I forgot to add in my earlier message that I
attempted to view the chronicle at Gallica, but for some unknown reason
was unable. I conferred with two acquaintances of mine, both of whom
are familiar with Latin, with regards to the text concerning Raymond.
According to them, "apud" usually means "at" or "near" when paired with
a place-name (as it is in "apud Tholosam"). They believe it refers to
him being born in Toulouse, or perhaps an alternate interpretation is
that he was born into the aristocratic house of Toulouse. They cited a
phrase from Cicero, "agri in Hispania apud Karthaginem Novam" (fields
in Spain near Cartagena) to illustrate this.

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