GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-08 > 1123539323
From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:15:23 GMT
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<> wrote in message
> Peter Stewart wrote:
>> Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
>> about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was
>> youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094.
>> relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on
>> 419) is under 1099 as follows:
>> "Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
>> supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
>> vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
>> Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
>> William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
>> five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars.
>> among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later
>> in Antioch).
>> Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
>> Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had
>> son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
>> Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there,
>> the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named
>> Peter Stewart
> Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I forgot to add in my earlier message that I
> attempted to view the chronicle at Gallica, but for some unknown reason
> was unable. I conferred with two acquaintances of mine, both of whom
> are familiar with Latin, with regards to the text concerning Raymond.
> According to them, "apud" usually means "at" or "near" when paired with
> a place-name (as it is in "apud Tholosam"). They believe it refers to
> him being born in Toulouse, or perhaps an alternate interpretation is
> that he was born into the aristocratic house of Toulouse. They cited a
> phrase from Cicero, "agri in Hispania apud Karthaginem Novam" (fields
> in Spain near Cartagena) to illustrate this.
"Apud" can mean a number of things, "with", "by", "near", "among" or, as the
French would say, "chez".
In Jean Verdon's translation "apud Tholosam" indicates that Raimond of
Antioch himself was born "at Toulouse", but it could equally mean that he
was the last of the fruits of the union of his parents to be born there.
However, I can't see in the context that the chronicler was taking an
exceptional interest in the birthplace of Raimond and/or his siblings, and I
think the meaning of "apud" here is more "among" rather than "at" - i.e.
that Raimond was the latest among the uterine issue begotten from his
father's marriage to the Tolosan wife Philippa (born "chez Toulouse" if you
like, which should be "Tholosanam" for the individual perhaps), so
representing as much the family as the place that she came from, and not
where all her children or any of them were necessarily born.
That is why I left the ambiguity by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective and
"uterinum" into a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used by
this writer. It's not elegant, but the chonicle of Saint-Maixent is far from
a literary marvel.