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From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: Maud de Furnival, wife of Sir Walter Montgomery of Cubley
Date: 16 Aug 2005 12:09:44 -0700
References: <1124178757.966017.47690@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1124198949.340536.115260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1124214362.808563.208670@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1124215625.404477.185020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <1124215625.404477.185020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Dear Martin ~

Thank you for your good post. You've asked an excellent question.

There is an ancient pedigree of the Clarell family in Misc. Gen. &
Heraldica which identifies Isabel, wife of Sir Thomas Clarell (he
living c. 1354), as a member and heiress of the Comyn family:

"Sir Thomas Clarell son and heyre. = Izabell Dor. & heyre of
Redcomyn." [Reference: Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 4th Ser. 4 (1912): 70
(Clarell pedigree)].

We know from other sources that Sir Thomas Clarell's wife was in fact
named Isabel:

Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers, Reference: DD/FJ/4/32/8, grant dated 21 June 1335 from John
Hyghe of Roderham, chaplain to Thomas Clarell and his wife Isabel in
tail lands in Thorpe, 1 water mill and 1 fulling mill in Aldewerk,
Osterneheeng meadow in Thrybergh, and lands in Kilnehirst and Great and
Little Dalton, of which Thomas had previously enfeoffed the grantor
(abstract of documents available online at
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

My research indicates that Thomas and Isabel's son, William Clarell
(died c. 1380), of Aldwark, Yorkshire, was heir before 1376 to Sir
Thomas Comyn, of Ulceby, Lincolnshire, by which he inherited the manor
of Ulceby, Lincolnshire, a Comyn property:

Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate
Papers, DD/FJ/1/165/3, grant dated 11 Feb. 1375/6 from William Clarell,
Lord of Ulceby to Sir Gilbert, rector of Rawmarsh, Yorkshire et al. of
the manor of Ulceby, Lincolnshire, subject to the reversion of dower of
dame Margaret, widow of Sir Thomas Comyn (abstract of document
available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

The Sir Thomas Comyn in question appears to have been the son of an
earlier Robert Comyn, of Ulceby, Lincolnshire, who occurs in the
period, 1335-1340. In 1335, Robert Comyn demanded against Roger Comyn
and Agnes his wife and others land in Ulceby, Lincolnshire which
William de Roos of Helmsley had given to Alice his daughter (Robert
Comyn's grandmother) [Reference: Lincolnshire Notes & Queries, 9
(1907): 249-250]. In 1340 Robert Comyn charged that Robert Belhone
of Scawby was charged with stealing four sheep from him at Ulceby,
Lincolnshire [Reference: McLane, 1341 Royal Inquest in Lincolnshire
(Lincoln Rec. Soc. 78) (1988): 127, 131].

Given that Isabel Comyn's husband, Sir Thomas Clarell, occurs in the
records in the same approximate time period as Robert Comyn, it seems
apparent that Isabel Comyn, wife of Sir Thomas Clarell, was the sister
of Robert Comyn (living 1335-1340), and thus daughter of John Comyn, of
Ulceby, Lincolnshire, who occurs as an adult in the period, 1300-1310.
John Comyn in turn was a younger son of John Comyn (died 1273-8), of
Badenoch in Scotland, by his 2nd wife, Alice de Roos (died c. 1286).

I know of no evidence whatsoever that Isabel, wife of Sir Thomas
Clarell, was a member of the Saint Philibert family, although this is
claimed by Hunter, South Yorkshire, 2 (1831): 51-56, and other
secondary sources. Rather, I believe the descent of the manor of
Ulceby, Lincolnshire from the Roos family to the Comyn family to the
Clarell family confirms that Lady Isabel Clarell was a Comyn, as stated
in the pedigree I've cited above. Had the Comyn line failed, the manor
of Ulceby, Lincolnshire would almost certainly have reverted back to
the Roos family, it being the maritagium of Robert Comyn's grandmother,
Alice (de Roos) Comyn.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

wrote:
< As a descendant of Elizabeth Mansfield, I was already noticing the
< Montgomery material. However, there is a discrepancy between the
< database you cite and Magna Carta Ancestry as to the parentage of
< William Clarell c. 1340-bef 1380, the father of Thomas Clarell who
< married Maud Montgomery.
<
< Magna Carta gives the parents as Thomas Clarell and Isabel Comyn (p.
< 202) and the database has Thomas Clarell and Isabell de St. Philbert.
< Please comment on the discrepancy.

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