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From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: 30 Aug 2005 11:50:05 -0700
References: <1125165184.529728.320180@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <1125165184.529728.320180@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my original post, I believe I've determined the nature
of the kinship between King Richard II of England and Edmund Stafford,
Keeper of the Privy Seal, Bishop of Exeter.

As I stated earlier, Edmund Stafford can only have been related to King
Richard II through one of three families: Wake, Quincy, and Fiennes.
So far, I've examined the Wake and Quincy families, and have not found
any specific indication that Edmund Stafford was related through those
families. Also, we may deduce that the kinship to King Richard II came
through Edmund Stafford's mother, Isabel de Vernon, as, to my
knowledge, none of Edmund Stafford's father's relatives, the Staffords
and Bassets, were called kinsfolk by King Richard II.

Reviewing the Vernon ancestry, I find that Edmund Stafford's
great-grandfather, Richard de Vernon, married Eleanor de Fiennes,
daughter of Giles de Fiennes, in or about 1290. This is indicated by
the following information in VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 90, citation
kindly provided to me by Matthew Connelly:

"In 1290 he [Richard de Vernon] enfeoffed his son Richard and Eleanor
daughter of Giles Fenes of Pitchcott Manor (25), and in 1292 it was
granted to her father in custody during their minority (26). Richard
Vernon, the father, regained seisin of this manor, however, before 1302
(27) "

References: Footnote 25: Abbrev. Plac. (Rec. Com.), 223; Footnote 26:
Cal. Pat. 1281-92, p.470; Footnote 27: Feud. Aids, i, 93; see also De
Banco R. 178, m. 218; 204, m. 103d.; Feud. Aids, i, 113. END OF QUOTE.

Vernon family genealogists have commonly assumed that the marriage of
Richard de Vernon and Eleanor de Fiennes was childless. However, there
doesn't appear to be any evidence to suggest this. As such, I believe
there is every reason to think that Eleanor (de Fiennes) de Vernon is
ancestral to Bishop Edmund Stafford. I understand this arrangement of
the Vernon family (or something similar) is presented in Farrer's book,
Honors and Knights' Fees, vol. 1, which source I haven't yet seen.

As for Sir Giles de Fiennes (father of Eleanor), records show that he
was a younger brother of Sir William de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes,
died 1302. Sir William de Fiennes in turn was the great-great-
grandfather of King Richard II of England. If so, this would make
Eleanor de Fiennes' presumed descendant, Bishop Edmund Stafford, and
King Richard II related in the 5th and 5th degrees of kindred by common
descent from Enguerrand de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes (living 1261),
as follows:

1. Enguerrand de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes, m. _____ de Conde.
2. William de Fiennes, Knt., seigneur of Fiennes, married Blanche de
Brienne.
3. Joan de Fiennes, married John Wake, Knt., 1st Lord Wake.
4. Margaret Wake, married Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent.
5. Joan of Kent, married Edward the Black Prince, Prince of Wales.
6. Richard II, King of England.

1. Enguerrand de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes, m. _____ de Conde.
2. Giles de Fiennes, Knt., occurs 1270-1314, married Sibyl de Filliol.
3. Eleanor de Fiennes, married 1290 Richard de Vernon.
4. Richard de Vernon, died 1333, married before 1313 Maud de Camville.
5. Isabel de Vernon, married Richard de Stafford, K.B., Lord Stafford.
6. Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants who are descended from Richard de Vernon and Eleanor
de Fiennes.

Robert Abell, Thomas Booth, Obadiah Bruen, Henry Corbin, Muriel Gurdon,
Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Anthony Savage, Amy Willis.

I might note that the above immigrants are descended through the
Fiennes family from Faramus of Boulogne, brother of Rohese of Boulogne,
wife of Sir Richard de Lucy, Chief Justiciar of England.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> As I've continued reading through book, The Diplomatic Correspondence
> of Richard II, it's quite interesting to see King Richard II's
> references to his various kinsfolk, both foreign and domestic.
>
> One surprising kinship which has turned up is Richard II's references
> to his kinsman, Edmund Stafford, then keeper of the privy seal,
> afterwards Bishop of Exeter. There are six such references to Edmund
> Stafford being the king's kinsman in the diplomatic correspondence:
>
> pp. 80-81 Letter of Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1390: "...
> quod consanguineus noster carissimus Magister Edmundum de Stafford,
> legum doctor eximius ac licenciatus in decretis et custos nostri
> privati sigilli, ..."
>
> pg. 93. Petition from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1391.
> Petition asking for an episcopal promotion for "consanguineum nostrum
> Magistrum E. de Stafford, legum doctorem eximium et licenciatum in
> decretis, nostri privati sigilli custodem ..."
>
> pg. 113. Petition from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1392.
> Petition asking for promotion for "egregium virum magistrum Edmundum de
> S[tafford], consanguineum nostrum carissimum, qui profecto legum doctor
> eximius et licenciatus in decretis ac sigilli nostri privati custos
> existit."
>
> pp. 152-153. Letter from Richard II to Adam Easton, Cardinal of
> England dated 1391-1395: "... quod ipsa paternitas vestra carissimos
> clericos nostros magistrum Edmundum Stafford, nostrum consanguineum et
> custodem nostri privati sigilli super decanatu suo Ebor', et Johannem
> Boore, ...."
>
> pp. 153-154. Letter from Richard II to Adam Easton, Cardinal of
> England dated 1391-1395: "... carissimos clericos nostros magistrum E.
> de S[tafford], consanguineum nostrum et custodem nostri privati
> sigilli, super decanatu Ebor', et Johannem Boore, ..."
>
> pp. 157-158. Letter from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1395:
> "... carissimi consanguinei nostri magistri E[dmundi] de S[tafford],
> legum doctoris eximii et licenciati in decretis, nostri privati sigilli
> custodis ..."
>
> Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter, was a younger son of Sir Richard de
> Stafford, Lord Stafford, by his 1st wife, Isabel, daughter of Richard
> de Vernon, Knt., of Haddon, Derbyshire. For particulars on the
> Stafford family, please see my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp.
> 6-7. The most likely place for Edmund Stafford to be related to King
> Richard II would seemingly be through Edmund's great-grandmother,
> Hawise, wife of Ralph Basset (died 1300), 1st Lord Basset of Drayton.
> Hawise's identity is presently unknown. But, if she is the same person
> as Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford, as recently
> theorized by the learned John Ravilious, then she would be near related
> to King Richard II. King Richard II's great-grandmother, Hawise de
> Quincy, was a first cousin to Hawise de Vere. If Hawise Basset was a
> Vere, it would also explain the subsequent rise to power of her
> descendants, the Bassets of Drayton and the Staffords.
>
> Due to the fact that the king's ancestry is largely Continental, Edmund
> Stafford's ancestry presumably connects to the king through only three
> English families found in the king's ancestry: Wake, Quincy, or
> Fiennes. So, the circle of possibilities of kinship is extremely
> narrow.
>
> Comments are invited.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net

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