Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-08 > 1125444734

From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: 30 Aug 2005 16:32:14 -0700
References: <> <> <4314e82f@news.ColoState.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <4314e82f@news.ColoState.EDU>

Dear Todd ~

Thank you for your posts. You've made some excellent points.

One immediate comment: The passage of the manor of Pitchcott,
Buckinghamshire in 1292 to Giles de Fiennes was surely a trust position
on behalf of his daughter and son-in-law, Eleanor and Richard de
Vernon, both then minors. The allegation that it was back in the hands
of the Vernon family by 1302 doesn't preclude the marriage of Richard
de Vernon and Eleanor de Fiennes from having produced issue. I'm sure
it was intended that Giles de Fiennes only hold the manor for a short
period until his son-in-law came of age. By my arrangement, Eleanor de
Fiennes' husband, Richard de Vernon, was of age by 1302, which would
explain the end of Giles de Fiennes' trusteeship. In short, I think
this is a non-issue. I "trust" you agree.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > When you have short generations with the same names, it
> > is very easy to collapse two generations into one. This is the bane of
> > records in the medieval period.
> . . . or expand one generation into two. What we have are two
> documented marriages (or rather, one documented engagement, and one
> documented widow).
> What basis is there to say there are two grooms and short chronology,
> unless we start with the assumption that each person only married once,
> an assumption we all know is invalid? Umm . . .
> What evidence do we have that there was only one generation and normal
> chronology? Well, for starters William's grandfather's widow, Isabella,
> has the same name as the documented wife of Richard le Fraunceys,
> William's grandfather under a one generation scenario, but
> great-grandfather under your alternative. Now, you could ad hoc into
> existence another Isabella, second wife of Eleanor's husband, but if you
> are to now allow a single man to marry two wives in sequence, doing so
> with a single Richard, married to Eleanor and Maud, would seem more
> parsimonious.
> taf

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