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From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:44:40 -0600
References: <4314e4dd@news.ColoState.EDU> <Ln6Re.38$lY2.5326@news.uswest.net>
In-Reply-To: <Ln6Re.38$lY2.5326@news.uswest.net>


Luke Potter wrote:

> Yet did this younger Richard have a son Richard by Eleanor as Douglas
> suggests? The chronology could be argued either way. If there were three
> Richards though, we only have details of the deaths of two of them, and
> no record of another third of the Vernon lands being provided for the
> upkeep of any further widow beyong Isabel de Harcla, Eleanor de Frenes,
> and, later in the 1330s, Joan widow of William.

Don't you mean Maud (Matilda) de Camville (instead of ELeanor) - I know
of no evidence of a moity going to Eleanor, but in the 1330 ipm which
found William heir of his grandfather, dower claims were made by Isabel,
widow of the grandfather, and by Maud, widow of the father.

> However the key evidence is the IPM of Richard husband of Maud Camville
> in 1324. In this it states that he was Richard son of Richard de Vernon
> and that he held his lands of his father. Was this father Richard
> husband of Eleanor? The answer is given by the charter of William de
> Freford later that year. In this William returned the manors of Mauds
> Meaburn and Newby to Richard de Vernon and Isabel his wife. As Richard
> husband of Isabel de Harcla was still alive he must be identified with
> Richard de Vernon the elder and father of Richard husband of Matilda
> Camville.

It really seems to fit well together, and so far the only argument that
favors an alternative is that Richard II was related to Edmund Stafford.
I don't find that weighty in overturning this body of documentation.

taf

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