GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-08 > 1125509468
From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
Date: 31 Aug 2005 10:31:08 -0700
References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com>
Dear Newsgroup ~
In my post below and the one preceding it, I inadvertedly stated that
Hawise de Quincy was the great-grandmother of King Richard II of
England. Hawise de Quincy was actually his great-great-grandmother.
My apologies if I confused anyone by the slip.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
> An alternative theory to the identity of Hawise, wife of Ralph Basset,
> 1st Lord Basset, would be for her to be King Richard II's own
> great-grandmother, Hawise de Quincy, who was widowed in 1282 and died
> in 1285. Hawise was born about 1250 (being aged 14 in 1264). There is
> barely enough time for her to have been the wife of Ralph Basset in the
> period, 1282-1285, and given birth to his two children, Ralph and
> Margaret, and then died in 1285.
> This scenario seems doubtful, however, as I've found three references
> to Hawise de Quincy as widow of Baldwin Wake: (1) in 1282 following her
> husband's death; in 1283 when she was named heiress to her sister, Joan
> de Quincy, wife of Humphrey de Bohun; and in 1285 at her death. These
> records make it unlikely but not impossible for Hawise de Quincy to
> have contracted a marriage to Ralph Basset in the period, 1282-1285.
> All the same, I've found the following record in the helpful online A2A
> Catalogue which shows that Ralph Basset of Drayton alienated rents out
> of his manor of Drayton Basset, Staffordshire in August 1285 for a
> chaplain at Farley. This may well have been done to celebrate the
> anniversary of his wife's death. Since we know that Hawise de Quincy,
> widow of Baldwin Wake, died early in 1285, the dating of this gift
> would fit for Hawise de Quincy to have been Ralph Basset's lately
> deceased wife.
> Suffolk Record Office, Bury St Edmunds Branch: The Bunbury Family,
> Reference: E 18/220/2: royal licence for the alienation in mortmain of
> 100s. rent from the manor of Drayton Basset from Ralph Basset of
> Drayton to the chaplain at Farley. Date: 14 August 1285. END OF
> Regardless, if Hawise Basset was either Hawise de Quincy (widow of
> Baldwin Wake) or Hawise de Vere (as suggested by John Ravilious), it
> would make her descendant, Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter, related
> to King Richard II within the 5th degree on at least one side. Either
> solution would give the Basset and Stafford families a descent from the
> Quincy family.
> Either solution would also work well with John Ravilious' own theory
> that the Despenser family were descendants of the baronial Quincy
> family. I find that Hugh le Despenser the younger referred to Hawise
> Basset's son, Ralph Basset, 2nd Lord Basset of Drayton, as his "cousin"
> [Reference: Chaplais, War of Saint-Sardos 1323-1325 (Camden Soc. 3rd
> Ser. 87) (1954): vi, 75 & 80]. If Ralph Basset's mother was a Quincy
> or a Vere (whose mother was a Quincy) and if the Despensers had a
> Quincy connection, it would explain this otherwise unresolved kinship.
> This matter deserves further study.
> In further support of a Quincy connection, I find that the Quincy manor
> of Long Buckby, Northamptonshire was afterwards in the hands of Ralph
> Basset, 2nd Lord Basset. I'm uncertain how he obtained possession of
> this manor. I suspect, however, that he was granted the manor by
> Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, whose wife, Alice de Lacy, was heiress to
> various Quincy family estates.
> Comments are invited.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
> Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> > As I've continued reading through book, The Diplomatic Correspondence
> > of Richard II, it's quite interesting to see King Richard II's
> > references to his various kinsfolk, both foreign and domestic.
> > One surprising kinship which has turned up is Richard II's references
> > to his kinsman, Edmund Stafford, then keeper of the privy seal,
> > afterwards Bishop of Exeter. There are six such references to Edmund
> > Stafford being the king's kinsman in the diplomatic correspondence:
> > pp. 80-81 Letter of Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1390: "...
> > quod consanguineus noster carissimus Magister Edmundum de Stafford,
> > legum doctor eximius ac licenciatus in decretis et custos nostri
> > privati sigilli, ..."
> > pg. 93. Petition from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1391.
> > Petition asking for an episcopal promotion for "consanguineum nostrum
> > Magistrum E. de Stafford, legum doctorem eximium et licenciatum in
> > decretis, nostri privati sigilli custodem ..."
> > pg. 113. Petition from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1392.
> > Petition asking for promotion for "egregium virum magistrum Edmundum de
> > S[tafford], consanguineum nostrum carissimum, qui profecto legum doctor
> > eximius et licenciatus in decretis ac sigilli nostri privati custos
> > existit."
> > pp. 152-153. Letter from Richard II to Adam Easton, Cardinal of
> > England dated 1391-1395: "... quod ipsa paternitas vestra carissimos
> > clericos nostros magistrum Edmundum Stafford, nostrum consanguineum et
> > custodem nostri privati sigilli super decanatu suo Ebor', et Johannem
> > Boore, ...."
> > pp. 153-154. Letter from Richard II to Adam Easton, Cardinal of
> > England dated 1391-1395: "... carissimos clericos nostros magistrum E.
> > de S[tafford], consanguineum nostrum et custodem nostri privati
> > sigilli, super decanatu Ebor', et Johannem Boore, ..."
> > pp. 157-158. Letter from Richard II to Pope Boniface IX dated 1395:
> > "... carissimi consanguinei nostri magistri E[dmundi] de S[tafford],
> > legum doctoris eximii et licenciati in decretis, nostri privati sigilli
> > custodis ..."
> > Edmund Stafford, Bishop of Exeter, was a younger son of Sir Richard de
> > Stafford, Lord Stafford, by his 1st wife, Isabel, daughter of Richard
> > de Vernon, Knt., of Haddon, Derbyshire. For particulars on the
> > Stafford family, please see my book, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pp.
> > 6-7. The most likely place for Edmund Stafford to be related to King
> > Richard II would seemingly be through Edmund's great-grandmother,
> > Hawise, wife of Ralph Basset (died 1300), 1st Lord Basset of Drayton.
> > Hawise's identity is presently unknown. But, if she is the same person
> > as Hawise, daughter of Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford, as recently
> > theorized by the learned John Ravilious, then she would be near related
> > to King Richard II. King Richard II's great-grandmother, Hawise de
> > Quincy, was a first cousin to Hawise de Vere. If Hawise Basset was a
> > Vere, it would also explain the subsequent rise to power of her
> > descendants, the Bassets of Drayton and the Staffords.
> > Due to the fact that the king's ancestry is largely Continental, Edmund
> > Stafford's ancestry presumably connects to the king through only three
> > English families found in the king's ancestry: Wake, Quincy, or
> > Fiennes. So, the circle of possibilities of kinship is extremely
> > narrow.
> > Comments are invited.
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> > Website: www.royalancestry.net
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