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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-09 > 1126094520


From: "Ginny Wagner" <>
Subject: RE: Trusted Sources
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:02:00 -0500
In-Reply-To: <431e44e8$0$14457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>


Another most helpful post, Paul, for which I am very
appreciative. And yes, Michael ... the plot does thicken.
This is probably easy for you guys, but <the gift of John de
Sanford formerly his father> strikes me as rather odd. How
can someone be formerly his father? Does that mean the
former John de Sanford, his father? And why would Beatrix
be entitled to a fee? Did Fulk have to put her aside since
Bishops couldn't be married if they wanted advancement? Was
she Fulk's wife or mistress -- can we tell from the charters
below?

If I understand Paul and Michael's posts properly:

1. Gilbert Basset (d. 1241)
2. Fulk de Saundford/Basset bishop of London (1241-d.1259)
3. Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271) justicar Henry III

(1.or 2.)1. Fulk de Sandford/Basset/Wycombe (d. 1271)
Archbishop of Dublin
m. Beatrix Turberville/Basset
(1.or 2.)2. John de Sandford/Basset (d. 1294)
Archbishop of Dublin


(1.or2.)2.1. Nicolas de Sandford
(1.or2.)2.2. Sir Laurance de Sandford
m. Hawise de Samford (liv 1297)

I wonder where the Sir Roger who witnessed would fit in?

From CTG, Vol V, p. 199 with ... indicating unsure direct
lineage:

1. William de Gorham of Maine,
2. Geoffrey de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans (1119-1146)
3. [Olivia] de Gorham
m. Hugh, son of Humbald
4. Henry de Gorham

... 1.1 Ive de Gorham held Westwick ca. 1145
1.2 Robert de Gorham, Abbot of St. Albans 1151-1166
1.3 Ralph de Gorham oc. ca. 1140, Lord of Sarret 1160

1.1.1. Geoffrey de Gorham held Westwick in 1166
1.3.1. Robert de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161
1.3.2. Geoffrey de Gorham, monk of St. Albans ca. 1161

... 1.1.1.1. Sir Henry de Gorham oc. 1199 and ca. 1220

... 1.1.1.1.1. Sir William de Gorham
(the same mentioned as steward to Fulk?)
m. Cecilia de Sanford, Governess of Elenor,
sister of Henry III, died 23 July, 1251
buried at St. Albans
Sister to
Nicholas de Sanford, held Aston
Sanford 1234, d. 23 Jan. 1252 and ....
Gilbert de Sanford Lord of Great
Hormede,
Chamberlain to Queen Elenor, m. to
Lora,
d. 1250 who was father to:
Alicia de Sanford, who bought the
reversion
of Westwick 1307, died 1312 and was
married to Robert de Veer, 5th Earl
of Oxford,
Lord of Gt. Hormede, d. 1296
and she was mother to:
Alphonsus de Veer, Lord of
Great
Hormede 1297, of Aston Sanford
1316,
and of Westwick-Gorham ca.
1320.

GCG indicated an unknown female Gorham married Hugh but
_Some Descendants of Captain John Gorham of Plymouth Colony
in New York State and the Western Reserve_ Compiled by Helen
Hester King, B.S. and Linetta Ainsworth Daniels states
Geoffrey's sister, Olivia, came from Brittany to receive his
patronage. The next sentences are "The Manor [Westwick] was
willed to his sister, whose husband took the name, de
Gorham. She died without issue and the Manor and other
holdings eventually passed to the abbot's three nephews,
Ive, Robert, and Ralph, sons of his brother, William."

Please correct any misunderstandings or errors I have posted
herein.

Best,
Ginny Wagner



The 1911 Encyclopaedia says:
>
> SANDFORD, JOHN DE (d. 1294), archbishop of Dublin, was
probably an
> illegitimate son of the baronial leader, Gilbert Basset
(d. 1241), or
> of his brother Fulk Basset, bishop of London from 1241
until his death
> in 1259, a prelate who was prominent during the troubles
of Henry III.s
> reign. John was a nephew of Sir Philip Basset (d. 1271),
the justiciar.
> He first appears as an official of Henry III. in Ireland
and of Edward
> I. in both England and Ireland; he was appointed dean of
St Patricks,
> Dublin, in 1275. In 1284 he was chosen archbishop of
Dublin in
> succession to John of Darlington; some, however, objected
to this
> choice and Sandford resigned his claim; but was elected a
second time
> while he was in Rome, and returning to Ireland was allowed
to take up
> the office. In 1288, during a time of great confusion, the
archbishop
> acted as governor of Ireland. In 1290 he resigned and
returned to
> England. Sandford served Edward I. in the great case over
the
> succession to the Scottish throne in 1292 and also as an
envoy to the
> German king, Adolph of Nassau, and the princes of the
Empire. On his
> return from Germany he died at Yarmouth on the 2nd of
October 1294.
>
> Sandfords elder brother, Fulk (d. 1271), was also
archbishop of Dublin.
> He is called Fulk de Sandford and also Fulk Basset owing
to his
> relationship to the Bassets. Having been archdeacon of
Middlesex and
> treasurer and chancellor of St Pauls Cathedral, London, he
was
> appointed archbishop of Dublin by Pope Alexander IV. in
1256. He took
> some slight part in. the government of Ireland under Henry
III. and
> died at Finglas on the 4th of May 1271.
>
> (This suggests that it is the editor who was mistaken in
thinking Paris
> had slipped up.)
>
> Michael
>

Thanks very much for the above information. The following
references may
be of some significance.

undated
Charter of feoffment, whereby Nicholas de Sanford grants,
&c. to Sir
Laurence de Sanford his brother, and his heirs, for his
homage and
service, all his manor of Estune in the county of
Buckingham, which he
held of the gift of John de Sanford formerly his father,
reserving a
yearly rent of 4d. Witn. Sir Philip Basset, Master Thomas
Cumyn, Sir
William Dyre, Sir Oliver de Ingham, Sir Roger de Sanford,
Sir Adam de
Dutton, Sir William Eyvile(?). Sir Ranulph de Mundeville,
Thomas le
Blunt, Adam de la Ford, Alan de Esefeld, John de Merden, and
others.
Seal of green wax, containing a sheild, barry wavy of six:
legend
"S.Ni...lai de Saunford" (undated)
CTG 6:351

1271
By a deed dated on Monday next after the feast of St. Mark,
55 Hen 111,
Beatrix de Turberville released to Hawysia de Sanford five
marks
annually rent, part of 10 l. which the said Beatrix was
entitled to
receive annually by way of dower out of Melbury, under a
settlement made
by a fine between Fulk Basset, Bishop of London, and said
Beatrix.
Witness, Nicholas Bretun, Aval de Rocheford, Ad. Foliot, and
others.

Hawisa de Sanford is described on her monumental brass in
the church as
daughter of the Lord Basset. and from the terms of this deed
she seems
to be the owner of this manor. Fulke Basset, bishop of
London, mentioned
in the deed, was also Lord Basset of Wycombe.
Hutchins - History of Dorset 2:656

1297
Hawisw de Samford, wife or widow of Sir Lawrence Samford
presented as
patron to the church of Melbury Samford
CTG 6:334-361.

CTG ---Collectanea Topograhica Genealogica.

Kind Regards

Paul



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