GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-10 > 1128723091
From: "Jim Weber" <>
Subject: Constantine de Clifton & Joan de Orreby
Date: 7 Oct 2005 15:11:31 -0700
In its article on John 1st Lord Clifton, CP III:305, begins:
JOHN DE CLIFTON, of Buckenham Castle, Norfolk, s. and h. of Constantine
C., by Catherine, da. of Sir William de la Pole, which Constantine was
s. and h. ap. of Adam de Clifton, (a) of Buckenham Castle afsd., and
other large estates (inherited through the families of Cailly and
Tateshale), having previously suc. his said grandfather, was found h.
to Margaret de Cailly in (1368) Edw. III, being then aged 15 years. He
had livery of his lands 27 Oct 1374...
(a) This Adam was s. and h. of another Adam de C. (who d. 1366/7), s.
and h. of Roger de Clifton (writ for whose Inq.P.M. is dat. 24 June 4
Edw III), by Margery, sister and h. of Thomas (Lord) de Cailly, which
Margery and Thomas were children of Adam de Cailly, by Emma, his 2nd
wife, da. (whose issue became h.) of Robert de Tateshale, of Buckenham
abovenamed. There is a well worked pedigree of the owners of Buckenham
Castle in Barrett's 'History of Attleborough.' J.H. Round has dealt in
his work 'The King's Serjeants' (pp. 149 sqq.), with the claim to the
office of Chief Butler as appurtenant to Buckenham, which was the caput
of the Norfolk fief of the d'Aubigny Earls of Arundel, of whom
Tateshales were the eldest coheirs. G.E.C. and V.G.
This indicates the following descent:
1. Roger de Clifton; m. Margery de Cailly, d. by 1368.
2. Alan de Clifton, d. 1366/7.
3. Alan de Clifton, living 1366/7, d. by 1368. (was s. & h.)
4. Constantine de Clifton, dvp. bef. 1368; m. Catherine de la Pole.
5. John de Clifton, b. c1353, d. 10 Aug 1388; m. Elizabeth Cromwell
The timing is fairly tricky, with a number of deaths c1366/8 (the
plague?); also in John having his great great grandmother alive until
he was 15!
CP X:462-3 in the article on Henry 3rd Lord de Percy, d. about 18 May
1368, states that his widow Joan de Orreby m., 2ndly, Sir Constantine
Clifton, and d. at the end of July 1369. Clearly, if the above dates
were true, this could not be the same Constantine above (who was not
named a knight), father of John 1st Lord Clifton. However AR7, line
218-33, gives "bef. 1372" as Constantine's death date, not the dvp.
implied to be before 1368 given by CP. Thus AR7's death date (I don't
have it in front of me so I don't know what AR7's source was) would fit
with the two Constantines being the same person.
Does anyone have information that would indicate where Joan de Orreby's
2nd husband fits into the descent Clifton family.
|Constantine de Clifton & Joan de Orreby by "Jim Weber" <>|