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From:
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..
Date: 26 Nov 2005 13:50:40 -0800
References: <a1da1ddb24e907d4ac1e2f5d7941bc76@localhost.talkabouteducation.com> <dm3if2$u1$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <1132905214.924276.77190@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <dm7j78$gdn$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu>


Dear Newsgroup;

I have been following this recent discussion and have studied the
archives in considerable detail. I offer the following theory with
references for your consideration.

The approximate dates in the chart below were calculated using a dating
model I developed for the Preston line which has proved to be a
remarkably accurate model when interleafed with actual records.

Descendants of Eldred of Northumbria

1. Eldred/Etheldred of Northumbria (approx b. 1018) alive 1086 d. bef
1093 [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] m. (1) Aldgytha/ Adgitha [ref 1] Eldred aka
Etret aka Ughtret and others
2. Ketel FitzEldred (approx b. 1047) alive 1020-1030 [ref 2] m.
Christiana[ref 2]
3. Orme FitzKetel (approx b. 1076) d. ca 1135/40 [Ref 3] m. Gunhilda
FitzGospatric est b. 1072; dau Gospatric I the Earl d. 1074/5
[Keats-Rohan, p.221]
4. Gospatric FitzOrme (b. 1100-1110 d. 1179 [literature] m. Egilina de
Engaine [traded for Workington with cousin William de Lancaster I]
4. Osulf FitzOrme [ref 3] of Preston Richard (approx b. 1105) younger
brother to Gospatric) alive 1189-1199 [Ref 4] m. unknown
5. Uchtred FitzOsulf aka Richard de Preston I [approx b. 1134 [ref 5]
m. possibly dau Adam D'Avranches [inferred from 1190-1220 Farrer,
Records of Kendale, volume 2, page 113.]
6. Richard de Preston II [ref 6] [approx b. 1163] m. Erneburgh le
Fleming
3. William FitzKetel [ref 2]
*2nd Wife of Eldred of Northumbria: Beatrice de Taillebois, dau Ivo
Taillebois and unknown wife. [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] Ivo and Eldred were
contemporaneous therefore his est b. 1020-1030 [Scenario below]
[Keats-Rohan, p. 539]
2 . Goditha FitzEldred de Taillebois approx b. 1076 [Keats-Rohan, p.
539] [Scenario below] m. Gilbert de Lancaster [Keats-Rohan, p. 539]
3. William I de Lancaster approx b. 1105, but probable b. bef 1100 [ref
8] d. 1170 [Farrer, Records of Kendale, vol I p.xii] [ref 8]
[Keats-Rohan, p. 539] m. unknown
4. William II de Lancaster b. bef 1120 d. 1184 [Farrer, Records of
Kendale, vol I p.xiii] [ref 8] m. Hawise de Stuteville [Keats-Rohan, p.
539]
5. Hawise de Lancaster m. Gilbert FitzReinfred [Farrer Records of
Kendale, vol I p.2; 1189. Grant by King Richard confirming his
father's gift (Henry II) of Barony of Kendal and Hawsie de Lancaster
as his wife.]
4. Avice de Lancaster [Keats-Rohan, p. 539] m. 1st William II Peverel
(his 2nd wife)of Nottingham
*2nd Husband of Avice de Lancaster: [Keats-Rohan, p. 539
Richard de Morville [Keats-Rohan p. 539]

*2nd Wife of William I de Lancaster: Gundred de Warren 1117 - 1166 [ref
8][Keats-Rohan, p. 539] widow of Roger, Earl of Warwick d. 1153
[Keats-Rohan, p. 539]

3. Gilbert FitzGilbert de Stainton [no proof exists; chronologically
possible; long associated with the Lancaster family but I don't
believe son of William I; not unreasonable to expect Gilbert & Goditha
to name a son Gilbert] m. unknown [great grandfather of Erneburga le
Fleming m. Richard de Preston II (approx b. 1163) grandson of Osulf of
Preston Richard]
4. Christina de Stainton approx b. 1105 m. Michael II le Fleming approx
b. 1005
5. Anselm le Fleming approx b. 1134 m. Agnes Dunbar great grandaughter
of Gospatric I
6. Erneburgha le Fleming approx b. 1163 m. Richard de Preston II approx
b. 1163

3. Nicholas de Radcliffe [ref 9]


SCENARIO: The best date I have been able to find and estimate for Ivo
de Taillebois' birth in Normandy is about 1030. If he married 1st at
20 to N.N., one can estimate Beatrice de Taillebois born about
1050-1055. If she married Eldred at about 17-20 (after the conquest),
then Ketel's half sister Goditha and possibly her brother who I
believe was Gilbert de Stainton must have been born between 1070 and
1075. Eldred, who apparently died before Beatrice's father Ivo, may
have held property in her right that passed to Ketel generally
considered the 3rd Baron Kendal. Apparently she married Ribald as a
widow, about 1092/3, and was young enough to have 4 children (Ralph
Taillebois, Hervey, Rainald, and William) by him who inherited much of
Ivo's property which was her inheritance from Ivo. Incidentally,
Farrer argues persuasively that no Barony of Kendale/Kendal existed
prior to 1189 [Introduction, Records of Kendale, Vol. I]. Therefore,
the flow of barony succession often quoted did not exist. Ivo was first
Lord Kendal, lands reverted to the crown upon death, followed by
Eldred's (died before Ivo) son Ketel granted his lands probably as
Eldred's son who had no male issue with Ivo's daughter. Lordship of
Kendale/Kendal passed to William de Lancaster (name changed from
Taillebois by King's charter) either via grant or his father Gilbert,
married to Eldred and Beatrice's daughter Goditha, of Ivo
Taillebois' fief. (half sister to Ketel.) Thence, to William de
Lancaster II and heirs and finally Gilbert FitzReinfrid m. William
II's dau Hawise and became first Baron Kendal by King's charter.
Ketel's son Orm received Seaton and other lands from Gunhilda's
brother Waltheof upon their marriage, probably of more value, and
Kendal went to his nephew William de Lancaster I. Also, it is apparent
that Ketel owned an area called Preston near Kendal which later was
divided into Preston Richard owned by Osulf's grandson and a long
line of individuals named Richard de Preston. The other portion of
Preston went through Gospatric FitzOrme to his grandson Patrick de
Culwen who named it Preston Patrick.

Ref 1: " ELDRED or ETHELDRED, second feudal Lord of Kendal, who m.
Adgitha, and was s. by his son, KITEL, third Baron of Kendal." Source:
"A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great
Britain and Ireland Enjoying Territorial Possessions or High Official
Rank; but Uninvested with Heritable Honours." by John Burke, Esq.
vol. I, 1834.

Ref 2: "1120-1130; Chetel son of Eltred, by the advice of Christiana
his wife and William his son, and at the instance of archbishop
Thurstan, gave to the monks of St. Mary's, York, the church of Clapaham
and one carucate of land, the church of Kirkebi Kendale, the church of
Heversham, the church of Kirkebi Lonesdale and the lands belonging to
these churches; also the vill called Hotun, the church of Bethum and
land called Hafreb[r]ec, and the church of Burton and one carucate of
land. Witnesses: Archbishop Turstin, Christiana (the donor's) wife.
Archil the seneschal, Ralph Lasne (A sinus), Yvo son of Forne,
Ravenchil son of Suter. From the original (?) D. at Levens; Donsworth's
MS. CLIX, f. 180." (Farrer, Records of Kendale, Vol II, p 142)

Ref 3: "Walter L. Sheppard in his work on Carleton takes the
Harringtons back to Ketel fitz Eldred and cites Moriarty Notebooks
XIII:92 and XIX:59. I do not have what Moriaty cites. He also cites VCH
Lancs. III:171; V:246; VIII: 202, 324,232,413 for Osulf down to Robert
who married Agnes Cansfield.
16. Usulf, Ld. of Flimby and Harington.
32.Orm, thegn of Flimby, d. c. 1135/40.
33. Gunhilda.
64. Ketel.
66. Gospatric, d. 1074
67. sister E. Northumberland.
128. Eldred."

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Kay Allen Subject: Re: Early
Haringtons in Cumberland; Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003

Ref 4: 1189-1199ca: "Osulf of Flemingby of Cumberland made a grant of
land to the Priory of Carlisle "eighty years after Magnus Barelegs
perished in Ireland" [Grimble, 19]. He flourished during the time of
Richard I, who reigned from 1189 to 1199." Source: "Medieval
English Ancestors of Robert Abell" by Carl Boyer. FDP Note: "The
Vikings of Strangford Lough and The death of Magnus Barelegs
1103A.D." By Albert William Kelly Colmer, Consultant Historian.
Source: http://www.irishsecrets.ie/history-secrets/magnus-barelegs/

Ref 5: "ca1140-1184; In the time of Norman de Redeman, a grant of the
Manor of Tranton to him from Stiffinus, son of Dolphin de Trimbie.
Witnesses: Robertus de Morisbe, Garnacius de Huencurte, Adam Morisbe,
Huctredus, filius Osulfe, Willelmus de Lowdar, Willelmus et
Thomas...filius Adam de Morland, Adam Sillcet (Selside) &c." Source:
"The Redmans of Levens & Harwood"; by W. Greenwood, 1905, page 12.

Ref 6: "1170-1184; Uctred son of Osulf [de Preston :Richard] attested
charters of William de Lancaster II; Farrer, Lanes. Pipe R.,
443."(Farrer Vol II, p 202)

Ref 7: "1190-1220; Richard son of Hutred son of Osolf confirmed his
father's gift to the canons, namely the land between the brook and the
land of Henry de Mamecestre, son of Geoffrey [de Cheteham] on the east
side of the way which leads to Wathsuthenan, where their buildings
stand etc. (as above); Cockersand Chartul, 1002." (Farrer Vol II, p.
202)

Ref 8: "If the confirmation mentioned below occurred in about 1120/30
then William (I) [(4) 1] was born well before 1115. He would have been
old enough to have had a son who could witness his confirmation and
himself to have been of age. This would push back William (I)'s birth
to about 1090. Both William (I) and William (II) would have been quite
old when they died...I don't think William (II) [(5) 1] was the son of
Gundreda de Warren. Her first husband died 1153 [CP XII/2:362]. William
evidently witnessed his father's confirmation (about 1120/30) to the
Hospital of St Peter, York {Moriarty in Washington's paper (already
cited) and he refers to the printing of the charters to St Peter's in F
W Ragg "Charters of St Peter's Hospital, York" in CW2 ix 237-239. I
take it this refers to "Transactions of the Cumberland and
Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society" (? second series)
vol. IX]." Source: Richard Borthwick; Subject: Re: Ivo and Lucy
Talybois; Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date: 1998/10/02

Ref 9: Also in the literature, it is suggested "Nicholas de Radcliffe
b. 1097/1100 is the son of Gilbert de Furnesio who married Goditha"
who must have been the Gilbert who married Ketel's sister.

Forbes Dix Preston

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