GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-11 > 1133102983
From: "Peter Sutton" <>
Subject: RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:50:48 -0000
Since I sent the message in 2001 which you referred to I have done some more
research on a possible wife for Sir Nicholas Bek.
Josiah C. Wedgewood in HCS Volume: 1917-8 Parliamentary History Volume:1
" Sir Nicholas de Beek of Tean, MP Staffs 1363, 1365 - Born c. 1320; son and
heir of Robert de Beek of the same (dead)in 1347). He married Jane,
daughter of Ralph Earl of Stafford who was the mother of his heiress (Harl
MSS 6128. folio 59; and Gonville and Caius MSS No: 573 folio 107 ex. inf.
Rev. Charles Swynnerton).
In 1347 Tean was settled on him and his wife Jane (SC XV 114), his mother
Mary still having Hopton in dower for life while he had only the reversion.
He was knighted by 1348 being then in the household of Lord Stafford;
doubtless for that reason he was put on the Commission of the Peace in 1351.
He was a Commissioner occasionally 1354-61; and Sheriff of Staffordshire and
Salop from 27 November 1368 to July 1369, when he must have died, as he was
succeeded by the Under-Sheriff till November.
His only surviving daughter and heiress Elizabeth married Sir Robert de
Swynnerton of Swynnerton and was the mother of the famous Maud Swynnerton
(SC XV 114) who was abducted by Sir John de Ipstones.
He bore Arms in the Roll of 1380: Gules a Cross Ermine etc. etc."
As you know law suits 2H.IV and 9H.IV refer to a person called "Joan" as
being the wife of Sir Nicholas although they are some 30-40 years after his
Now if Sir Nicholas really did marry a daughter of Ralph Stafford and
Katherine de Hastang then there would be the following relationship between
Sir Robert de Swynnerton and Elizabeth Bek:
de Hastang = Isabella
1st degree, siblings Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Joan de Hastang Sir
John de Hastang = Eva
2nd degree, cousins Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Maud Haughton
Katherine de Hastang = Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
3rd degree, 2nd cousinsSir Thomas de Swynnerton = Maud de Holand Jane
or Joan de Stafford = Sir Nicholas Bek
4th degree, 3rd cousins Sir Robert de Swynnerton =
As they would be related in the 4th degree they would have required a Papal
dispensation to marry.
This is what I have found:
"Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain &
Ireland - Papal Letters Vol: VI AD 1404-1415 - PRO 1904
Lateran Regestra Vol: CXXIII 1405
12 Kal. Aug. St Peter's Rome (f.214)
Confirmation, at the recent petition of Maud, wife of John Savage, esquire
(armigeri), of the diocese of Lichfield - containing that her parents [the
late] Robert de Swynorton, knight, and the late Elizabeth his wife, upon
learning that they had contracted marriage in ignorance that they were
related in the fourth degree of kindred, obtained from the late John do
Cabrespino, canon of Narbonne, then nuncio in England who asserted that he
had faculty, for the purpose from Urban V, dispensation to remain in their
marriage, with declaration of the legitimacy of future offspring; and adding
that her said parents thereafter died, that she was born after the said
dispensation and that the registers of the, said pope which should contain
the said faculty are not in the Roman court - of the said dispensation, with
declaration that the said marriage and Maud herself were legitimate.
Exemplification is given of the letters of dispensation of John do
Cabrespino, doctor of canon law, canon of Narbonne, papal nuncio in England,
addressed to Robert de Swynarton (sic) and Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas
de Bek, of the diocese of Lichfield, which themselves contain
exemplification of Urban V's faculty Personam tuam, dated at Avignon, 8 Id.
July anno 1 , to dispense twenty-five men and as many women of his
nunciature to remain in marriages contracted in ignorance of their bqing
related in the fourth degree of kindred or affinity, declaring past and
future offspring legitimate [see Cal. Lett. IV pp. 87]
The nuncio's letters, dated in his lodging at London in the year of the
Nativity, 1364, indiction 2, according to the computation of the Roman
court, 25 Jan., anno 2 Urban V, are sealed with his seal, witnessed by
Berengarius Ferrarii, canon, [and] Peter Meyssenerii of the diocese of
Seboricen (i.e. perhaps Segorve, Segobricen, in Spain) and Geneva (Geneben),
and drawn up, attested written, published and sealed in form of a public
instrument by Raymond de Campo Albaldo, clerk, of the dioces of Mende,
public notary by papal authority Ad fut. rei mem. Justis et honestis."
Although this does not prove beyond all doubt that Sir Nicholas Bek married
Joan or Jane Stafford I now believe that this was the case.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
> Sent: 27 November 2005 03:10
> Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
> Douglas, thanks very much for this -
> > The colonial immigrant, Martha Eltonhead, descends from Sir
> Ralph de
> > Stafford (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, through his
> > Elizabeth de Beke, wife of Robert de Swinnerton, Knt. [Reference:
> > Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, pp. 303-307, 722-723].
> There's an old problem affecting the line you have in mind -
> concerning the uncertainty as to whether the mother of
> Elizabeth de Beke is a da. of Sir Ralph de Stafford - put
> most clearly I think by Peter Sutton on 24 Jan 01 sub <RE:
> Mother of Margaret Stafford> -
> > In the Collection for a History of Staffordshire Volume: 1925 p.
> > 109 ... from
> > a suit at Stafford Assizes in July, 1402, we learn
> definitely that he
> > (Sir Nicholas Beke) was the son of Mary (otherwise Mariota) de Bek,
> > and that he himself married a wife named Joan; while from a
> suit also
> > heard at Stafford in August,
> > 1408 we know that
> > he and Joan were both living at Lady day, 1348 (SHC XV,
> pages 114 and
> > 122 Plea Rolls 1387-1405). However, the surname is not
> quoted in any
> > source I have seen.
> > As to Ralph de Stafford's children by Katherine de Hastang
> I have not
> > seen any direct evidence that there were any other children
> from this
> > marriage apart from Margaret.
> > I am not sure how likely it would be for him to have 2
> daughters both
> > called Joan who lived to adulthood. Have you got a reliable source
> > for the marriage to Sir Nicholas Bek?
> I wonder whether for MCA or in the course of other work
> you've turned up an answer?
> Many thanks, again!
|RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford by "Peter Sutton" <>|